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Cbet/fold, then check/fold from turn, if you have no other info. If he is passive and folds a lot to cbets, you can check/fold on the flop. I don't really like check/calling here unless I have a read that he stabs a lot on flop, and gives up on turn.

Hey Jachis,

I prefer checking here and seeing what villain does. I will usually check/call flop and check/fold turn.

I think this is superior to betting flop and then checking turn, because villain will almost always bluff you off your hand after you check turn. If you check flop he may or may not fire a second barrel. He also might check down a worse pair like TT.

Originally posted by w34z3l
I prefer checking here and seeing what villain does. I will usually check/call flop and check/fold turn.

How much would you call on the flop? If you check, and villain pots, still insist your plan, and call?

Originally posted by w34z3l
I think this is superior to betting flop and then checking turn, because villain will almost always bluff you off your hand after you check turn. If you check flop he may or may not fire a second barrel. He also might check down a worse pair like TT.

But if we check/call flop, we rep what we have, 2nd pair type hands, so with his air/weak draws he can bet/bet, to make us fold. If you cbet, he usually folds his weak draws/air, as he has no odds to call, and call with Ax, Qx, and sometimes JJ-TT, so basically he will have no air in his range, only SD hands, and ppl usually don't turn JJ or QJ into bluff in this spot, these are on checkdown, and only Ax bets the turn.

Originally posted by DarkAwi
If you cbet, he usually folds his weak draws/air, as he has no odds to call, and call with Ax, Qx, and sometimes JJ-TT, so basically he will have no air in his range

I disagree that he will have no air in his range after we cbet. He should be floating the flop pretty often if he's decent and if hero is 3betting wide. The fact that villain will call with worse does not necessarily mean a value cbet is good if we will incorrectly fold the turn very often. Also we don't miss value because our hand is worth one-street max anyway. (Btw, the way we extract value from air with a bluff-catcher is by calling, not betting and folding out that air.)

Originally posted by DarkAwi
But if we check/call flop, we rep what we have, 2nd pair type hands,

I agree, very unfortunate. But what do we rep when we cbet flop and check turn? Our range is even weaker. Villains turn IP betting frequency is going to be way higher when we bet-flop/check-turn compared to when we check-call-flop/check-turn.

Even if villain puts us on marginal showdown we don't know if he expects us to check/fold. Also our range isn't necessarily capped, we can still play AA this way.

Originally posted by DarkAwi
How much would you call on the flop? If you check, and villain pots, still insist your plan, and call?

Seems pretty unlikely villain is going to pot this texture. I'd definitely call any normal size bet, but if you think bet-sizing is a sign of strength for particular opponent you could certainly check-fold.

Originally posted by w34z3l
I disagree that he will have no air in his range after we cbet. He should be floating the flop pretty often if he's decent and if hero is 3betting wide.

What hands would you float here if you were CO, and hero has let's say 10% 3bet vs CO, and an average flop cbet frequency?

Originally posted by DarkAwi
What hands would you float here if you were CO, and hero has let's say 10% 3bet vs CO, and an average flop cbet frequency?

Given the "average" tendency is to fire cbets in 3bet pots with a ridiculously high frequency at these stakes, I'd be floating my entire range. Includes stuff like K9s which is probably close to the bottom of my defend range vs wide 3better. Stuff like KJ/TJ that includes a gutshot I'd never even consider folding. And of course Axs + Qx never folding either.

Nice disccusion going on.

I think I like check calling . I sometimes do ch/call some weak Ax which could ch/c 2 streets.
Should we maybe ch/c Top set so we can even ch/c 3 streets and we dont get much value as we block most of the TP's and we get value from his bluffs and if he has JJ we get the money in anyway.

Originally posted by jachis
Should we maybe ch/c Top set

Yeah, I like this idea. Has the added benefit of protecting check/call range so villain can't auto-barrel every time we check as DarkAwi mentioned.