FL SH JQs in the CO. When to let go?

Why do you raise F en donk the T? what is your reason behind that? even if villains are fish (and you have no sample) they both have shown quite some strenght. Your hand is quite good but absolutely no monster so vs raise happy villains I would try to bring the hand to the SD. If you have reads on them you perhaps could play different, however based on a very small sample I would try to be SD bound.

I would have played the hand more passive.
I would not have raised the F, but called the SB bet. If BU then raises and the SB 3b, then I would fold. To just a BU raise (and SB call) I would calldown (unless your hand improves; J/Q, 2:d, or r-r-Straight).

edit: typo's

Originally posted by Sailer85
Why do you raise F en donk the T? what is your reason behind that? even if villains are fish (and you have no sample) they both have shown quite some strenght. Your hand is quite good but absolutely no monster so vs raise happy villains I would try to bring the hand to the SD. If you have reads on them you perhaps could play different, however based on a very small sample I would try to be SD bound.

I would have played the hand more passive.
I would not have raised the F, but called the SB bet. If BU then raises and the SB 3b, then I would fold. To just a BU raise (and SB call) I would calldown (unless your hand improves; J/Q, 2:d, or r-r-Straight).

edit: typo's

So the initial raise on the flop was a definate no no? Yes they have indicated strength but had been ever since joining. It was just for value and to perhaps isolate. I know afterwards I should have played more passively and was a complete fish.

Thanks for your anaylsis.

My post flop play really is dreadful.

The problem is that Pf they both have shown strenght, and continue to do so on the F. a raise has the problem that you blow up the pot without knowing where you stand. So you might (very well) be valuebetting for villains.

If you played against 1 villain a F raise could be an option, against 2 you are not ahead often enough.

I actually don't mind the raise on the flop. The SB probably has the same read on the button that you do, and so his cap preflop doesn't necessarily indicate a monster--he could just be trying to push you out of the pot and get heads-up against the maniac. On the flop, you should expect the maniac to re-raise with a lot of hands, and you're hoping this will knock the SB out of the hand, getting you heads-up when you're ahead of the maniac's range, and this would be very good for you.

However, once the SB stays in the hand, you probably should play x/c the rest of the way, since your hand isn't quite strong enough to protect in a multi-way pot. And if you are ahead, your opponents won't have a ton of outs, since there aren't a lot of draws that hit the SB's range, and, since you have a Q, anyone with overcards has only three outs, unless they have specifically AK. Also, by donking, you risk getting raised and still not knowing where you are since your opponents are so aggressive.

I might not be right about the flop raise, but it's an option, and I certainly don't consider it a "definate no no".

Thanks Snakeman and sailer for making things clear. Donking will be kept to a minimum. Your help is really appreciated

Originally posted by Snakeman91
I actually don't mind the raise on the flop. The SB probably has the same read on the button that you do, and so his cap preflop doesn't necessarily indicate a monster--he could just be trying to push you out of the pot and get heads-up against the maniac. On the flop, you should expect the maniac to re-raise with a lot of hands, and you're hoping this will knock the SB out of the hand, getting you heads-up when you're ahead of the maniac's range, and this would be very good for you.

However, once the SB stays in the hand, you probably should play x/c the rest of the way, since your hand isn't quite strong enough to protect in a multi-way pot. And if you are ahead, your opponents won't have a ton of outs, since there aren't a lot of draws that hit the SB's range, and, since you have a Q, anyone with overcards has only three outs, unless they have specifically AK. Also, by donking, you risk getting raised and still not knowing where you are since your opponents are so aggressive.

I might not be right about the flop raise, but it's an option, and I certainly don't consider it a "definate no no".

Would you also raise on the F if the SB does not have that read? since the BU was new I assume the Sb has only 12 hands on the BU which makes it difficult for the Sb to have an accurate read..

@ bookie; donking should be avoided, there are some situations when it can be usefull (NF hit on 4s board R and OOP, to prevent ch.beh on drawy board) however most of the time it is not the optimal play.

Hi!

1. flop raise is totally fine and standard. Yes they are strong but out of their strong hands AK,AQ,KQ,TT,... represent a very big portion and with pot this big its totally worth kicking BU out...standard and best imo.

2.after BU 3bets you equity drops significantly and you should realise that you are pretty big underdong to their assumed ranges which inclued very few worse valuehands...maybe JTs or overplayed TT,AK which ppl sometimes do.

3.Turn donk is clearly bad. Nothing really changed,you are doking in a clearly supperior range and BUs 3bet can be quite expected. Calling this raise is easy however.

4. River is sad and it all comes down to how well you know your oponents... if you dont(which may be the case here since you have a very small sample and they look fishy) then calling seems by far the best play...you should find spazzy BU and overSD bound SB in 1:19
But,... if you know them(like that BU or even SB is a decent tag or even just some regular who plays ABC) then I would fold it there... You can maybe say that hand like JT can be in BUs range but what then SB calling with... also JTs?!?!? this is just too extreme and 1:19 doesnt really cover it.

Originally posted by Dawnfall26
Hi!

1. flop raise is totally fine and standard. Yes they are strong but out of their strong hands AK,AQ,KQ,TT,... represent a very big portion and with pot this big its totally worth kicking BU out...standard and best imo.

2.after BU 3bets you equity drops significantly and you should realise that you are pretty big underdong to their assumed ranges which inclued very few worse valuehands...maybe JTs or overplayed TT,AK which ppl sometimes do.

3.Turn donk is clearly bad. Nothing really changed,you are doking in a clearly supperior range and BUs 3bet can be quite expected. Calling this raise is easy however.

4. River is sad and it all comes down to how well you know your oponents... if you dont(which may be the case here since you have a very small sample and they look fishy) then calling seems by far the best play...you should find spazzy BU and overSD bound SB in 1:19
But,... if you know them(like that BU or even SB is a decent tag or even just some regular who plays ABC) then I would fold it there... You can maybe say that hand like JT can be in BUs range but what then SB calling with... also JTs?!?!? this is just too extreme and 1:19 doesnt really cover it.

Thanks a lot Dawnfall. I like how your have broken everything down and made your line of thought clear giving me concrete areas to address. Of course the same goes to Sailer and Snakeman.

Seeing how others think is already changing how I perceive myself as a player (putting my limited game in its rightful pace without being made to look a total noob)

I will try and keep the hand evals down to the minimum for the time being so I'm not continually asking for info that is out there in print.

Cheers