Is poker beatable without a HUD?

Hi,

1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample

2) It's not cheating because online you play far more tables than live, and people can change very fast. So the HUD is an advantange you have online, but live you would have the advantage to play for a few hours with the same people, and you would be able to make mental notes on how they play etc... That's impossible to do online when you play with even 100 people at the sam time

3) No idea ♦

4) Again, it probably depends on stakes. I'm fairly confident for example i could beat plo25 w/o hud fairly easily. PLO50 it's already close.

Regards,

Skod

what would your reaction be if the bigger sites like stars followed suit with the likes of unibet and banned these programmes?

surely it would level the field out more and make poker a more enjoyable experience?

thx for your input shane

would it also bring more recreational players into the game and make fishes hang around longer?

yes, it is. i've beaten midstakes for well over a year without using a HUD, up to 8 tables or so (i did use HUDs before that)

and i think a site not facilitating HUDs has all sorts of advantages. i think it's very good for the poker ecology

Originally posted by Skodljivec

1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample

lol no. whether you could win at nl5k+ HUDless with fairly high volume without being a genius is debatable imo. you don't have to be anywhere close to a genius to beat nl100+ though.

Originally posted by Kruppe
yes, it is. i've beaten midstakes for well over a year without using a HUD, up to 8 tables or so (i did use HUDs before that)

and i think a site not facilitating HUDs has all sorts of advantages. i think it's very good for the poker ecology

I totally agree with this comment kruppe, I think it would serve poker in a good sence to stop facilitating huds

Originally posted by Kruppe

Originally posted by Skodljivec

1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample

lol no. whether you could win at nl5k+ HUDless with fairly high volume without being a genius is debatable imo. you don't have to be anywhere close to a genius to beat nl100+ though.

I'd imagine anyone who wins at nl5k+ long term is a genius, with or without a HUD?

Bierbaer doesn't use a HUD if I recall and neither do I, but then I don't beat midstakes (or any other) either! ♦

I personally don't use a HUD but I beat the micros in 9/45 man turbos, will be interesting if I can beat the $1.50,s + - its also very encouraging to see people can beat the games without certain programmes.

Originally posted by Kruppe

Originally posted by Skodljivec

1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample

lol no. whether you could win at nl5k+ HUDless with fairly high volume without being a genius is debatable imo. you don't have to be anywhere close to a genius to beat nl100+ though.

Well, when i said genius i was thinking smart beyond avarage ♦. Not literally a rocket scientist or anything. With a hud and hard work imo even the beyond avaragely smart people can make a living off poker. But they need the software.

Kudos to you to crushing w/o a hud. I've never heard of such a thing, therefore i assume you are very very intelligent, and fit what in my mind is a genius (basically i think of a genius of anyone that's smarter than me hahahaha)

Regards,

Skod

i think it has much more hud if you multitabling many tables or a big poker site with a lot of players. If it lower traffic not so many new players you can just take notes and can try without hud. Becouse some players can just play differnt in this day :)) ♦

Originally posted by Skodljivec

Originally posted by Kruppe

Originally posted by Skodljivec

1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample

lol no. whether you could win at nl5k+ HUDless with fairly high volume without being a genius is debatable imo. you don't have to be anywhere close to a genius to beat nl100+ though.

Well, when i said genius i was thinking smart beyond avarage ♦. Not literally a rocket scientist or anything. With a hud and hard work imo even the beyond avaragely smart people can make a living off poker. But they need the software.

Kudos to you to crushing w/o a hud. I've never heard of such a thing, therefore i assume you are very very intelligent, and fit what in my mind is a genius (basically i think of a genius of anyone that's smarter than me hahahaha)

Regards,

Skod

a lot of people play with no hud at mid and high stakes, I know a lot of them that actually are absoute beasts of the game. I like playing with a hud because i understand mine so much and make use of it but it's definitely not even close to making up my winrate, probably at most 20% of it.

people at microstakes and low stakes ofen use massive huds that they don't even understand which i think is very good for the games

if you wanna win money just work hard on your game and winrate will come

Well imo there's no way you are a winning player without making at least basic notes. And the hud shows them. So sure you can win w/o a hud, but you need a pencil and a piece of paper imo ♦.

That being said i know guys that crush HU w/o huds. But it's different cause you can really focus on the guy. There's no way you are 12 tabling and winning w/o hud. At least i'm yet to see that happen haha ♦

if you are good at takeing notes and have a good memory i think for sure possible beat the game without a HUD..

Would also be interesting if sites actually had a little picture if opponents using HUDS? Like they do with playing on mobile devices.

haha, ok, then i guess i am a genius by your definition
but i really don't think i'm a genius, and even if my IQ or whatever fullfilled the official criteria of 'genius', i would disagree with that. for me a genius is something more rare/special. i know quite a few people who are as clever as me, and we're not all genius imo.

and i disagree that the NL5k winners are all genius. i strongly suspect that many of them are less intelligent than me, but work much harder, have better discipline/professionality, spend more time on poker, etc. those things are more important than being a genius, not just in poker imo. poker in particular is an area in which genius is rewarded much less than people think (with there probably being a trend in this direction. i think 5+ years ago genius was rewarded much more, with a lot of players making it to the top simply by out-playing and thinking their opponents a huge amount of the time. e.g. the 'smart fish' durrrr (one of the dang brothers called him that once in an interview), who was extremely spewy/fishy/crazy but was just too smart for his opponents until they became more solid.

funny you should mention notes, as i've always been huge on notes. notes are completely different information to stats in HUDs, or at least they were up until notecaddy (i don't know enough about notecaddy to say whether it would be an OK replacement for my own style of notes/observation, but i doubt it), which has started bridging the two types of observation.

also, GTO theoretically disregards any information on your opponents, which includes stats. so if a player is able to use a purely GTO approach and have a positive winrate, which i think some players are, then the answer to the thread is yes.

Originally posted by Kruppe
also, GTO theoretically disregards any information on your opponents, which includes stats. so if a player is able to use a purely GTO approach and have a positive winrate, which i think some players are, then the answer to the thread is yes.

I play 5-Card Draw and I'm sure I did better before I had my HUD ♠_cry:
In that game, the HUD is really only useful for players on whom you have over 500 hands, by which time you pretty much know them anyway.

I DO take extensive notes, but I use Pokerstars' own system for that, not the HUD's.

As for Game-Theory Optimal, it seems to me that to use it effectively, you need to deviate from it strategically -- otherwise, it is a route to break-even at which point rake eats your wallet for breakfast.

Great thread!
VS

Nice thread going here with some awesome discussion and good points made. So interesting that I have decided to make it into a poll (after speaking to Shane first ofc)

Enjoy

Laz

Btw Yes. (otherwise I may as well give up now. )