[Closed] Ok this guy nails it. Exactly what I think!!!! However remember it's an engineers opinion only

It is so easy to prove if pokerstars is cheating. You just need to take huge amount of hands from different users, and see if the distributions are realistic.
Also, you can convince yourself that fishy players are really losing tone of money, by filtering their hands in pt4 or hm, and seeing how much they lost, and you will see that they lost huge money. They anyway keep depositing because they are gambling adicted.
there are actually many more regs than fish unfortunately at most limits.
The reason why it happens more often in online games comparing to live games, that more players hit on flop strong hand and play for stacks, is because in live games people play higher % of hands preflop, meaning that one player hits strong hands less often postflop, and thus the probability that 2 or more players hit strong hand postflop is even lower. Also online you play multitables, so you play many more hands, and increase probability that you see a flop where more players hit good.

Some software engineer tells all of this, I can tell you as experienced software engineer that, that guy is likely bad (losing) poker player, and likely not even software engineer since he is telling so much nonsense.

It's on the internet. It must be true. So if someone says he is person x with proff y, he is always to be trusted:f_thumbsup:

Ok, you guys are entitled to your opinions as well. However my PT3 and PT4, as well as HM show a different story. It shows a huge number of hands but the fish get lucky way to often to be realistic. For example lets use his sample size of 10000 online vs 10000 offline. The fish get lucky way more often online than offline.

Can you still make a profit. For sure. I do. But I have to play a lot more hands. The fish call way more often offline so yes you will see more suck outs. but over a large number of hands we should be making a lot more money.

I am sticking to my guns. I agree with this gentlemen. However again, just my opinion. And you have yours.

Lets here from others?

Originally posted by saltbeef
Ok, you guys are entitled to your opinions as well. However my PT3 and PT4, as well as HM show a different story. It shows a huge number of hands but the fish get lucky way to often to be realistic. For example lets use his sample size of 10000 online vs 10000 offline. The fish get lucky way more often online than offline.

Can you still make a profit. For sure. I do. But I have to play a lot more hands. The fish call way more often offline so yes you will see more suck outs. but over a large number of hands we should be making a lot more money.

I am sticking to my guns. I agree with this gentlemen. However again, just my opinion. And you have yours.

Lets here from others?

10000 hands isn't a sample to begin with

What kind of engineer, uses a video to post a letter

Originally posted by GoOnCal1
What kind of engineer, uses a video to post a letter

The kind of engineer that can't beat online poker. Apparently.

OK, since the secret has now been revealed, it is safe to post the following:

Online Poker is rigged and we new it all along

Why just the other day, I was playing 5-Card Draw and held a pair of 8s in the big blind.
UTG limped, and got 4 callers and thus I got a free play. I drew 3 7s.
UTG stood pat. Everyone else drew 1. I check-raised and won vs a Jack-high flush.

So obviously rigged. It is rigged for one specific player randomly
The problem is that they don't tell you ahead of time who is going to win the hand. Oh, but they know. Yes they do!

When it is your turn in the luckbox, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

How do they choose ahead of time?
They have a random number generator, where they pick a player at the table at random to be the winner, then rig the cards to make that player the winner NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES (except fold of course).

That is the only way it could possibly work. There is no other way.

OK, I've had my fun.
Get real people. If you HONESTLY believe it is rig then you must be insane to even play.
There are only 2598960 different poker hands, but there but there are 8 x 10^67 different ways to arrange the 52 cards of a deck, so there are a LOT of different ways to distribute the hand to 6 players.

The highest hand # in my database is 130,589,896,590 or 1.3 x 10^11.
Assuming no duplicates at all, in the expected lifetime of the universe, PokerStars will never get around to dealing them all.

Yup, must be rigged.

Thanks for revealing that.
VS

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
OK, since the secret has now been revealed, it is safe to post the following:

Online Poker is rigged and we new it all along

Why just the other day, I was playing 5-Card Draw and held a pair of 8s in the big blind.
UTG limped, and got 4 callers and thus I got a free play. I drew 3 7s.
UTG stood pat. Everyone else drew 1. I check-raised and won vs a Jack-high flush.

So obviously rigged. It is rigged for one specific player randomly
The problem is that they don't tell you ahead of time who is going to win the hand. Oh, but they know. Yes they do!

When it is your turn in the luckbox, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

How do they choose ahead of time?
They have a random number generator, where they pick a player at the table at random to be the winner, then rig the cards to make that player the winner NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES (except fold of course).

That is the only way it could possibly work. There is no other way.

OK, I've had my fun.
Get real people. If you HONESTLY believe it is rig then you must be insane to even play.
There are only 2598960 different poker hands, but there but there are 8 x 10^67 different ways to arrange the 52 cards of a deck, so there are a LOT of different ways to distribute the hand to 6 players.

The highest hand # in my database is 130,589,896,590 or 1.3 x 10^11.
Assuming no duplicates at all, in the expected lifetime of the universe, PokerStars will never get around to dealing them all.

Yup, must be rigged.

Thanks for revealing that.
VS

Sarcasm, with intention. Lets leave it to your opinion please?

Anyways I agree 10000 is a small sample. Here is a very simple test that anyone can do to test the RNG. There are 8 cards from 2 - 9. There are 5 cards from 10 - A. That's 3 more cards from 2 -9.

Wouldn't it be realistic to see a lot more cards from 2 -9 in the community if the RNG was legit. But no. We see a lot more of the cards from 10 - A. Very simple test for anyone. Your next session check it out.

I don't care if you take a sample size of 100 hands or 1,000,000 hands. You are going to find the same.

Find your own answer.

However, than you have to ask yourself, if the math is wrong, than what else is wrong?

Right?

Originally posted by saltbeefRight?

Nope.

i got a new conspiracy theory: only microstakes are rigged

as a REAL example, let's pick a sample of 760 hands of nl2 zoom that i played earlier today just for the lulz.
in these hands, i flopped four (!!) sets, which is already clearly way beyond average, but i lost my stack with all of them (!!!!!!!!!!!) now if THAT isn't proof of riggedness, then i don't know what is.

graph

so well, isn't the probability of being overset like 1% or something given two players starting with pocket pairs? so for being overset twice PLUS actually losing with two other sets and all that in under 1000 hands, it's totally clear that it's rigged for action!!!1!
now, this fucking never happens to me at the limits i usually play, and never in my favor. of course the poker rooms are tracking who are the winning players and rigging it against them.

given that conclusive evidence, now i think that you all can agree with the ULTIMATE CONCLUSION:
only microstakes are rigged for action, because if it happened at higher stakes then smart people would get suspicious!!!11! no one cares about microstakes.
if it only happens at microstakes, whenever some smart microstakes player brings it up, then they can be discredited by the higher stakes players, and since these have higher reputation no one will believe the microstakes player!!!1!1

have you noticed how it's really only microstakes players that bring this up? now it all makes sense.
gg rooms. busted

Originally posted by Tomaloc
i got a new conspiracy theory: only microstakes are rigged

as a REAL example, let's pick a sample of 760 hands of nl2 zoom that i played earlier today just for the lulz.
in these hands, i flopped four (!!) sets, which is already clearly way beyond average, but i lost my stack with all of them (!!!!!!!!!!!) now if THAT isn't proof of riggedness, then i don't know what is.

graph

Spoiler

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 101 BB
SB: 120 BB
BB: 218 BB
UTG: 92.5 BB
Hero (MP): 160 BB
CO: 142 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 4♥ 4♦

fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, CO calls 2 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (5.5 BB, 2 players) T♣ K♠ 4♣
Hero checks, CO bets 3.5 BB, Hero raises to 15.5 BB, CO calls 12 BB

Turn: (36.5 BB, 2 players) 9♦
Hero bets 29 BB, CO raises to 124.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 95.5 BB

River: (285.5 BB, 2 players) A♣

Hero shows 4♥ 4♦ (Three of a Kind, Fours)
(Pre 19%, Flop 4%, Turn 2%)
CO shows T♠ T♦ (Three of a Kind, Tens)
(Pre 81%, Flop 96%, Turn 98%)
CO wins 275.5 BB

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 108.5 BB
SB: 100.5 BB
BB: 70.5 BB
UTG: 107 BB
Hero (MP): 200 BB
CO: 128.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 3♥ 3♠

UTG raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (7.5 BB, 2 players) 3♦ Q♥ 9♠
UTG bets 3.5 BB, Hero raises to 13 BB, UTG calls 9.5 BB

Turn: (33.5 BB, 2 players) 6♠
UTG checks, Hero bets 24 BB, UTG calls 24 BB

River: (81.5 BB, 2 players) J♠
UTG bets 16 BB, Hero raises to 92 BB, UTG calls 51 BB and is all-in

Hero shows 3♥ 3♠ (Three of a Kind, Threes)
(Pre 50%, Flop 93%, Turn 82%)
UTG shows K♠ Q♠ (Flush, King High)
(Pre 50%, Flop 7%, Turn 18%)
UTG wins 208 BB

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 66.5 BB
SB: 100.5 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 381.5 BB
Hero (MP): 156 BB
CO: 201 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T♣ T♠

fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, CO calls 2 BB, fold, SB raises to 9 BB, fold, Hero calls 7 BB, fold

Flop: (21 BB, 2 players) 8♦ A♥ T♦
SB bets 12 BB, Hero calls 12 BB

Turn: (45 BB, 2 players) J♠
SB bets 26 BB, Hero raises to 135 BB and is all-in, SB calls 53.5 BB and is all-in

River: (204 BB, 2 players) 2♦

SB shows J♦ J♥ (Three of a Kind, Jacks)
(Pre 81%, Flop 17%, Turn 98%)
Hero shows T♣ T♠ (Three of a Kind, Tens)
(Pre 19%, Flop 83%, Turn 2%)
SB wins 197 BB

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 126 BB
SB: 104 BB
BB: 106 BB
UTG: 96 BB
MP: 129 BB
CO: 106.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8♠ 8♣

fold, MP calls 1 BB, CO raises to 5 BB, Hero calls 5 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (12.5 BB, 2 players) 8♥ 7♠ 6♣
CO bets 7.5 BB, Hero raises to 28.5 BB, CO raises to 101.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 73 BB

Turn: (215.5 BB, 2 players) A♣

River: (215.5 BB, 2 players) 10:club:
Players agreed to run it twice.

Turn #2: (215.5 BB, 2 players) K♠

River #2: (215.5 BB, 2 players) 10:spade:

CO shows 9♦ 9♣ (Straight, Ten High)
Board #1 (Pre 82%, Flop 32%, Turn 23%)
(Straight, Ten High)
Board #2 (Pre 82%, Flop 32%, Turn 23%)

Hero shows 8♠ 8♣ (Three of a Kind, Eights)
Board #1 (Pre 18%, Flop 68%, Turn 77%)
(Three of a Kind, Eights)
Board #2 (Pre 18%, Flop 68%, Turn 77%)

CO wins 104 BB
CO wins 104 BB

so well, isn't the probability of being overset like 1% or something given two players starting with pocket pairs? so for being overset twice PLUS actually losing with two other sets and all that in under 1000 hands, it's totally clear that it's rigged for action!!!1!
now, this fucking never happens to me at the limits i usually play, and never in my favor. of course the poker rooms are tracking who are the winning players and rigging it against them.

given that conclusive evidence, now i think that you all can agree with the ULTIMATE CONCLUSION:
only microstakes are rigged for action, because if it happened at higher stakes then smart people would get suspicious!!!11! no one cares about microstakes.
if it only happens at microstakes, whenever some smart microstakes player brings it up, then they can be discredited by the higher stakes players, and since these have higher reputation no one will believe the microstakes player!!!1!1

have you noticed how it's really only microstakes players that bring this up? now it all makes sense.
gg rooms. busted

Lol

Originally posted by saltbeef

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
OK, since the secret has now been revealed, it is safe to post the following:

Online Poker is rigged and we new it all along

Why just the other day, I was playing 5-Card Draw and held a pair of 8s in the big blind.
UTG limped, and got 4 callers and thus I got a free play. I drew 3 7s.
UTG stood pat. Everyone else drew 1. I check-raised and won vs a Jack-high flush.

So obviously rigged. It is rigged for one specific player randomly
The problem is that they don't tell you ahead of time who is going to win the hand. Oh, but they know. Yes they do!

When it is your turn in the luckbox, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

How do they choose ahead of time?
They have a random number generator, where they pick a player at the table at random to be the winner, then rig the cards to make that player the winner NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES (except fold of course).

That is the only way it could possibly work. There is no other way.

OK, I've had my fun.
Get real people. If you HONESTLY believe it is rig then you must be insane to even play.
There are only 2598960 different poker hands, but there but there are 8 x 10^67 different ways to arrange the 52 cards of a deck, so there are a LOT of different ways to distribute the hand to 6 players.

The highest hand # in my database is 130,589,896,590 or 1.3 x 10^11.
Assuming no duplicates at all, in the expected lifetime of the universe, PokerStars will never get around to dealing them all.

Yup, must be rigged.

Thanks for revealing that.
VS

Sarcasm, with intention. Lets leave it to your opinion please?

Anyways I agree 10000 is a small sample. Here is a very simple test that anyone can do to test the RNG. There are 8 cards from 2 - 9. There are 5 cards from 10 - A. That's 3 more cards from 2 -9.

Wouldn't it be realistic to see a lot more cards from 2 -9 in the community if the RNG was legit. But no. We see a lot more of the cards from 10 - A. Very simple test for anyone. Your next session check it out.

I don't care if you take a sample size of 100 hands or 1,000,000 hands. You are going to find the same.

Find your own answer.

However, than you have to ask yourself, if the math is wrong, than what else is wrong?

Right?

How about another test, why don't you post the last 10k hands you have played, and I'm sure many of us will point to you at least a handfull of leaks that are costing you money.

Originally posted by redskwerl

Originally posted by GoOnCal1
What kind of engineer, uses a video to post a letter

The kind of engineer that can't beat online poker. Apparently.

The kind of Engineer that haven't studied one simple class of Calculus or Statistics.

Please avoid his bridges.

Vorpal I like your post

The 2.59million poker hands what is this? Is this combinations of flops or something? sounds interesting and I'm curious!

Wouldn't it be realistic to see a lot more cards from 2 -9 in the community if the RNG was legit. But no. We see a lot more of the cards from 10 - A. Very simple test for anyone. Your next session check it out.

No not in the community.low cards will be folded more often than high cards so you should expect to see more high cards. When I'm next at my PC I'll query my admittedly small database and report back if my own card distributions appear valid.

Fwiw I have often felt that online does not play like live poker. The setups seem insane online and more frequent than to be expected. Then I read about confirmation bias and selective recall, and also think if it really was not random then it would have been proved as so beyond a doubt by now? But I never made my mind up.

Thumbs up from me to balance the down.

You know what I am really wondering? Why every "online poker is rigged" crap always includes the word Pokerstars, at least once.

Originally posted by Zanardi1
You know what I am really wondering? Why every "online poker is rigged" crap always includes the word Pokerstars, at least once.

And why do they keep playing if it is so rigged?

Originally posted by iSoOwnYou
Vorpal I like your post

The 2.59million poker hands what is this? Is this combinations of flops or something? sounds interesting and I'm curious!

Wouldn't it be realistic to see a lot more cards from 2 -9 in the community if the RNG was legit. But no. We see a lot more of the cards from 10 - A. Very simple test for anyone. Your next session check it out.

No not in the community.low cards will be folded more often than high cards so you should expect to see more high cards. When I'm next at my PC I'll query my admittedly small database and report back if my own card distributions appear valid.

Fwiw I have often felt that online does not play like live poker. The setups seem insane online and more frequent than to be expected. Then I read about confirmation bias and selective recall, and also think if it really was not random then it would have been proved as so beyond a doubt by now? But I never made my mind up.

yeah forgot to comment about this too, simple blocker effect.

Originally posted by booomm

Originally posted by iSoOwnYou
Vorpal I like your post

The 2.59million poker hands what is this? Is this combinations of flops or something? sounds interesting and I'm curious!

Wouldn't it be realistic to see a lot more cards from 2 -9 in the community if the RNG was legit. But no. We see a lot more of the cards from 10 - A. Very simple test for anyone. Your next session check it out.

No not in the community.low cards will be folded more often than high cards so you should expect to see more high cards. When I'm next at my PC I'll query my admittedly small database and report back if my own card distributions appear valid.

Fwiw I have often felt that online does not play like live poker. The setups seem insane online and more frequent than to be expected. Then I read about confirmation bias and selective recall, and also think if it really was not random then it would have been proved as so beyond a doubt by now? But I never made my mind up.

yeah forgot to comment about this too, simple blocker effect.

No, actually this doesn't make sense. Preflop hole cards being folded or not folded has no blocker effect on the flop unless you play on some site that shuffles preflop mucked cards back into the deck to be dealt on the flop.

The reason why he thinks this is because he will call an A92 flop a "high card flop" even though it only have one A-T card and two 9-2 cards. With three cards on the flop the chances of a high card are pretty likely.

The probabilities are roughly

21% A high flop
18% K high flop
15% Q high flop
12% J high flop
10% T high flop (76% T+ high flop, 23% 9 high or lower flop)

So the low flops should not happen often.