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Multiway turn open end straight draw analysis

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Taken from my blog

I've just written my blog post, about to start a session, and feel I need to go through a hand from yesterday to show myself I'm being stupid:

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP: $9.62
Hero (CO): $10.35
BTN: $8.86
SB: $13.67
BB: $10.00
UTG: $11.93

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with Q :club: J :diamond:
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, 2 folds, MP calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.05) 7 :club: 8 :club: T :spade: (3 players)
MP checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.90, MP calls $0.90, Hero calls $0.90

Turn: ($3.75) K :spade: (3 players)
MP checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $3, MP calls $3, Hero ???

Easy fold right? Not if I'm in a gambling mood.

So let's make some assumptions to make this maths easy.
1. If I miss the river, I fold
2. If I hit my A or 9, we all go all-in and I win (even if its a 3rd spade)
3. Neither villain has an A or a 9, or a flush draw
4. Villains are unknowns

Next, let's work out my odds of hitting the river:
52 cards in a deck, 6 are out (my 2 + the board), so 46 left. There are 8 cards left that (given the rules) give me the nuts. My odds are 8/46.

How much money does the pot need to amount to on the river to make it worth while?:
Imagine I'm flipping a coin, and betting 'tails'. I have 1/2 chance of winning, therefore to be breakeven I need a prize of 2/1.
Here I have 8/46 chance of winning, therefore to breakeven I need a prize of 46/8 x $3 that I'm putting in.

Therefore, to win if all conditions are perfect, I have to win $17.25 when this happens.

Let's add up.. $3.75 on the turn, add the BTN and MP bets of 3 each = $9.75. Add the rest of their stacks ($4.6 +$5.42) = $19.77! PROFITABLE CALL!

BUT, that's if all conditions are perfect and we live in a rake free world. Now lets assuming that 1 of these has an A (non-spade), and the other has a flush draw.

Now there are only 6 cards out of 46 that help us (one A is taken, and lets say we play perfectly and fold on A of spades). We now need to win $23 to be breakeven.

Add onto this that both villains could fold, or we could split pot, or we could call down against a flush draw, and this soon gets to be really bad. To be honest, I really wasn't expecting the initial set of rules to bring a good decision around! But we are then relying on a lot of assumptions for everything to play out well.

FYI;

Spoiler

Turn: ($3.75) K :spade: (3 players)
MP checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $3, MP calls $3, Hero calls $3

River: ($12.75) A :heart: (3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $6.15 all in, BTN calls $4.66 all in, MP calls $5.42 all in

Final Pot: $28.25
MP shows 7 :heart: A :club: (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
Hero shows Q :club: J :diamond: (a straight, Ten to Ace)
BTN shows 8 :heart: 8 :diamond: (three of a kind, Eights)
Hero wins $1.45
Hero wins $25.53
(Rake: $1.27)


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16 replies
nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Mmmm, there are blankswe have to fill.
First, I would raise the limper to at least 4x. If he calls and you see what hand he has, you can increase the amount next time. The idea is to make him pay as much as he will bear.
Second, What 8 outs give you the nuts ott? I hope you realise that A and9 of clubs are not clear outs and may complete a flush that will crush you.
Third, pay attention to the action, BTN is making solid bets on 2 streets vs 2 of you. Do you think he is doing this with a draw or bluff? I do not think so. He is betting for value.
Forth, Do not put villains on a hand, think in ranges.

Now, to sum up - I am not calling here.


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Alleen86
Joined: 27.05.2010

I would raise 4x preflop by default. Then on the flop I think that our hand is too weak to check/call, especially multy-way and especially vs that sizing. I would rather bet/fold the flop and give up later streets unimproved. I think on the flop check/fold is better than bet/fold and bet/fold is better than check/call. On the turn we have OESD, but spades and clubs are potentially not good, so I would just check/fold.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

The implied odds just aren't there. There are reverse implied odds too. What if A♣: hits? Can you get away? Maybe, maybe not, but they certainly will be able to get away if 9♠: hits.


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Oh aye, I agree, it was shit. This thread isn't me justifying the play, it's me berating myself for making a play that is massively -EV.


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Afulibador
Joined: 21.08.2009

Originally posted by OneDayIllMakeIt
Oh aye, I agree, it was shit. This thread isn't me justifying the play, it's me berating myself for making a play that is massively -EV.

No need to berating yourself. Note things, learn, but take it easy _thumbsup:


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Afulibador
Joined: 21.08.2009

BU has show good strength on this hand, making u need to hit the hand to possibly win it.
What goes against u, besides the pure odds, is that ur sure out on this flop (nines) would make the straight so obvious that ll be hard to extract money when hitting... That said, for me is a fold there already, otf.


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My pure thinking for calling the flop was that if a 9 turns then I get huge implied odds from Jx (which they can have JJ, JT, KJ, AJ quite easily). As it's 3 way, I'm last to act so know we're not going to get raised, and I have such large implied odds against a J, I don't mind my flop play too much..

Turn however is pure gambling.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by OneDayIllMakeIt
Oh aye, I agree, it was shit. This thread isn't me justifying the play, it's me berating myself for making a play that is massively -EV.

Man, it is the first step to improvement - to be brave enough to post hands and admit, you have a lot to learn.
I like that you give yout thought process , this will help you clear some mistakes in the concepts.
Do not berate yourself. Instead write, ask, make comments, give your insight.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by OneDayIllMakeIt
My pure thinking for calling the flop was that if a 9 turns then I get huge implied odds from Jx (which they can have JJ, JT, KJ, AJ quite easily). As it's 3 way, I'm last to act so know we're not going to get raised, and I have such large implied odds against a J, I don't mind my flop play too much..

Turn however is pure gambling.

well, with that many players that keep interested in the hand, the probability that you are already behind is bigger.


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Afulibador
Joined: 21.08.2009

OneDayIllMakeIt, missed to mention that w one limper already in the hand u definitely should raise bigger... like 4x or even more if villain likes to call.


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Afulibador
Joined: 21.08.2009

Originally posted by OneDayIllMakeIt
My pure thinking for calling the flop was that if a 9 turns then I get huge implied odds from Jx (which they can have JJ, JT, KJ, AJ quite easily). As it's 3 way, I'm last to act so know we're not going to get raised, and I have such large implied odds against a J, I don't mind my flop play too much..

Turn however is pure gambling.

The kind of bet u are facing seems to be from a strong made hand extracting value and protecting himself. If someone has the hands u said is more easy to them to take the free card, or even bet kind small than go agressive like that in a mwp.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

I guess everything is pretty much already said. I might fold this hand pre but since we decide to isolate we should do it bigger. On the flop you do not have enough odds to call that big bet multiway. Turn is a fold for the same reason. You can not think that villains do not have FD. There is 2 flush draws possible and we are multiway. Although BTNs play looks like set/straight.


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Afulibador
Joined: 21.08.2009

la55i, dont u think QJo is a great hand to iso raise against a fish?


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Originally posted by Afulibador
la55i, dont u think QJo is a great hand to iso raise against a fish?

I guess it is fine. We have another fish on BTN and when he calls too SB and BB get better odds to call though.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

That's the reason to iso raise bigger.


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Afulibador
Joined: 21.08.2009

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by Afulibador
la55i, dont u think QJo is a great hand to iso raise against a fish?

I guess it is fine. We have another fish on BTN and when he calls too SB and BB get better odds to call though.

Understood. Ur thinking here is not the hand itself, but actually the circunstance of possibly getting called loose for many in a way that doenst worth the opening at first place.


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