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Backdoor fd vs fish.

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marsa08
Joined: 30.01.2014

$0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 3 Players

Hero (SB): $42.65 (213.3 bb)
BB: $19.04 (95.2 bb)
BTN: $20 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6 9
BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.40, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.80) 8 T J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.48, BB raises to $1, Hero calls $0.52

Turn: ($2.80) K (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1.40, Hero calls $1.40

River: ($5.60) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $5.60

Villain is a tight fish 32/20 AF 0,8. Raise cbet 10, WTSD 40. Can I shove river for value or do I just call?

He can have straights that calls the shove and he should not have that many flushes as it is backdoor flush? On the other hand we block some 9x hands. Not sure about what to do.


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22 replies
nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

First tell, How big is your hand sample?


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marsa08
Joined: 30.01.2014

Vs his small raise I have enough equity to call with my straightdraw+ bdfd.

And I got 500 hands + notes that he calls down light with mid pair and TP.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

I'd probably refrain from shoving though it is tempting. Hands like A♥:T♥: or T♥:8♥: or A♥:9♥: do make some sense. Not much perhaps, but since he is tight, I fear that he isn't calling with anything less than a flush. You kind of super-strongly represent the nut straight - at least - if you shove. Would you yourself really call with the nut straight for a split at best here?


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marsa08
Joined: 30.01.2014

Villain is loose postflop but tighter than normal fish pf.

Edit; meaning he is calling station but just not as loose preflop as a total fish. That is what I meant by tight fish. Sorry if I was misleading.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

With Af 0.8 he is passive. I am not shoving river.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

I honestly don't see flushes in his range. A lot of flushes are blocked. AhQh is the only one I think he could have and he should 3bet that pre and I don't think he will raise it OTF. Board Kh, Jh and our hand blocks very well all flushes. He probably hit a set OTF. I would raise for value.


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Ciufciuf5
Joined: 15.06.2013

I would fold pre this hand vs loose opponent.
As played I don't know if we have sufficient FE for a profitable cbet, plus we don't have too much IO cause straight is pretty obvious here and we are not IP. So I'll probably x/call the flop and revaluate the turn, we can steal there or we can check again and try to steal the river. However if he forces me to invest too much money I think is better to quit.
As played I'll def shove river for value, so many hands that pay us. I think leading OTR is a better option tho, don't want him to check back!


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

For some reason I didn't think about those hands Yohan put there. ^^
I think those are possible. Maybe shove is not that good play after all since villain indeed has some better flushes, although they are only few combos.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

BBvsSB. BB has tons of flushes there!


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Sure but what of those he will raise OTF? 6♥:7♥:9♥:J♥:K♥: blocks tons of his flushes.

679 actually blocks all of his lower suited connectors if we believe he doesn't call with 45s,34s etc.. (which we beat)
K♥:J♥: blocks a lot of flushes also. He should also 3bet polarized and hence 3bet his weakest QXs. That's why I don't see any QhXh in his range because the higher ones are blocked and lower wouldn't raise OTF. QTs maybe but would he raise with midpair, gutshot and BDFD? T♥:8♥: and A♥:9♥: makes sense but it is 2 combos.

So, tons of flushes?

PS. Sorry this post might be quite unclear. I had to edit it several times because of brain farts. Hope you can understand it :f_biggrin:


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

I'd estimate a kilogram. Not much more.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

More seriously, the question is really whether he stacks off. If he doesn't, then it is just lots-of-risk-no-reward in shoving. That is the issue more than how many flushes he has.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

First, the flop raise is... min-raise. It surely is not for value on this board.
All hearts he can have, connected in some way and can do this stupid min-raise.
AhQh for example has BDFD+SD.
AhTh has secondP and a bunch of backdoors.


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AXSPIRAL
Joined: 06.03.2011

what do you guys think about check raise allin on turn, does it make any sense?


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

What do you want to achieve with that?


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Only strong made hands and strong draws will call. We have 9 outs to hit flush and we might be already drawing dear. No reason to x/r shove.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Absolutely. I do not like the shove.


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marsa08
Joined: 30.01.2014

Originally posted by nitrol
With Af 0.8 he is passive. I am not shoving river.

Originally posted by nitrol
First, the flop raise is... min-raise. It surely is not for value on this board.
All hearts he can have, connected in some way and can do this stupid min-raise.
AhQh for example has BDFD+SD.
AhTh has secondP and a bunch of backdoors.

Originally posted by YohanN7
I'd probably refrain from shoving though it is tempting. Hands like A♥:T♥: or T♥:8♥: or A♥:9♥: do make some sense. Not much perhaps, but since he is tight, I fear that he isn't calling with anything less than a flush. You kind of super-strongly represent the nut straight - at least - if you shove. Would you yourself really call with the nut straight for a split at best here?

I think that these posts make sense. I should just call river. And when villain with 0.8 AF pots the river he will have something strong.

I was thinking that villain will have bunch of 9x hands and sets etc. that he is overplaying and I can easily stack his straights otr. I was thinking that he would never show up with a hand like this that he had as he raised on the flop. I think that this was one of the rare cases when he decided to raise this hand on the flop instead of just calling. But still, I should just call otr when passive player pots it.

River: ($5.60) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $5.60, Hero raises to $32.40, BB calls $10.64 and is all-in

Results:

Spoiler

$38.08 pot ($2 rake)
Final Board: 8 T J K 7
Hero mucked 6 9 and won $0.00 (-$19.04 net)
BB showed 8 Q and won $36.08 ($17.04 net)

I didn't see many flushes in villains range when I was playing.


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marsa08
Joined: 30.01.2014

Originally posted by AXSPIRAL
what do you guys think about check raise allin on turn, does it make any sense?

Vs a calling station that should not have any bluffs in his range this makes no sense at all.


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