Zoom: Fold QQ pre?

Flatting QQ MPvsUTG is ok. If you have a read that villain 4bets lighter I would shove pre. If we call we don't want to see A or K on the board and we might still be behind vs KK,AA.

I'm not sure if I like your shove OTF. When you shove, only hands that will call are AsJs+,JJ+. You have 16% agaist that range.

I'm not good at 4bet pots and ranges so this could be false. Vs UTG I would call flop and take passive line. Villains 4bet range is tight, UTGvsMP imo don't have JJ. So either villain have something like AK (bluff) or KK+ (value).

well i think getting it in preflop is not that wrong even though villain looks strong

If we just call pre we will face many problems postflop, just like we have here.

If we call OTF, what will we do OTT? Are we going to fold every A,K and spade? What if the card is low and villain bets again? He might have KK,AA, do we call again and find out? If we shove OTF we don't know how much FE we will have but vs villains calling range we have 16% equity so I don't like shove either. And folding seems weak.

I don't know what is the best way to play postflop as played, all of them look not so good. I think the mistake was made preflop and I prefer fold or shove there.

Originally posted by srna10
I'm not good at 4bet pots and ranges so this could be false. Vs UTG I would call flop and take passive line. Villains 4bet range is tight, UTGvsMP imo don't have JJ. So either villain have something like AK (bluff) or KK+ (value).

Hero had a read that villain showed a tendency to 4bet a bit more. We can assume that he has a 4bet bluff range which could be around AJs-ATs, AQo.

I prefer flatting QQ here.
Flop is a call.

Originally posted by la55i
If we just call pre we will face many problems postflop, just like we have here.

If we call OTF, what will we do OTT? Are we going to fold every A,K and spade? What if the card is low and villain bets again? He might have KK,AA, do we call again and find out? If we shove OTF we don't know how much FE we will have but vs villains calling range we have 16% equity so I don't like shove either. And folding seems weak.

I don't know what is the best way to play postflop as played, all of them look not so good. I think the mistake was made preflop and I prefer fold or shove there.

Best way is to keep it small. Call flop and maybe turn.

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by srna10
I'm not good at 4bet pots and ranges so this could be false. Vs UTG I would call flop and take passive line. Villains 4bet range is tight, UTGvsMP imo don't have JJ. So either villain have something like AK (bluff) or KK+ (value).

Hero had a read that villain showed a tendency to 4bet a bit more. We can assume that he has a 4bet bluff range which could be around AJs-ATs, AQo.

A tendency is not enough. Utg vs mp he has value KK+and some combos AF Ax as a bluff (not always).

From OP: Now, if he is not only 4betting KK+ then we can profitably shove this flop I don't agree. If he bets more for value, then it is with AK, and QQ/JJ. 4-bet bluffs and AK will not call a shove. As played, call flop.

I didn't calculate it but I guess with this raise size villain has to fold around 50% for it to be profitable. I don't know if 50% of his 4bets are hands that will fold here.
Would villain check the flop if he 4bet bluffed pre? Maybe not always but I don't think he wants us to fold here when he bets less than 1/3 pot.

We should follow the simple rule: always have a plan. If we 3 b then we should be ready to go all the way. If we are not comfortable - flat pre and see a flop.
Discussing the consequences of a bad preflop decision is counterproductive.