57s 3bet pot, xx flop , facing x/mr turn w weak OE

Well it´s really weird. You should c-bet this flop imo as he checks there - you seem strong due to PF game, therefore AQ are good cards for you. I don´t know what his re-raise means, maybe he puts you on bluff...

Originally posted by Mozzek
Well it´s really weird. You should c-bet this flop imo as he checks there - you seem strong due to PF game, therefore AQ are good cards for you. I don´t know what his re-raise means, maybe he puts you on bluff...

AQ are good cards for his range also and on flop I have trash. I am not fan of cbeting with such trash on flop.

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

Originally posted by Mozzek
Well it´s really weird. You should c-bet this flop imo as he checks there - you seem strong due to PF game, therefore AQ are good cards for you. I don´t know what his re-raise means, maybe he puts you on bluff...

AQ are good cards for his range also and on flop I have trash. I am not fan of cbeting with such trash on flop.

Yeah, but he checks, which signs weakness, I think we should try c-bet. Also matter how often does he call c-bet.

Preflop: Why did u 3bet in first place?? did the villain had a high Fold 3b in UTG or some extra leaks?

Postflop: despite the double check, he can slowplay hands like AA, AQ, Ax suited combos, QQ, 66 that can play like that. Also a little few K♠:J♠:, --- J♠:T♠: raising and looking to fold hands in your range like KK, JJ TT, QX or weak Ax. I don´t see to much bluffs here from the villain and unfortunately you have only 6 clean outs to improve (I discount 8♠: and 3♠: for reversed implied odds.).

Maybe you can evaluate to call with the hoping to improve but I think is an EV- move. Is more what you lose compared with the potential winnings if the villain stack off against your nut hands OTR.

I think your preflop play is too loose As you do not have enough info on villain.
Not cbetting Axx board is not ok too.
If you decide to get turn, you can call the nearly min raise. I do not like folding equity.

Too loose 3bet against UTG for me. Then I might cbet the flop because if hits our perceived range harder than villains. But on the other hand villains range is also strong and I doubt he will be folding that much there so maybe checking is not bad. OTT we improve to OESD and villains check raise there looks mostly like a bluff so I would call that. If he had a Ax I think he would quite often lead turn himself.

Everything can probably be discussed, except for the turn fold. It is a mathematical blunder, no matter whether he's bluffing. You get close 4.5:1 + implied odds. No need to guess there. Raise him AI OTR if you hit nut outs. Just call (and often still expect to win) if a non-nut out arrives. Your hand is as well disguised as it possibly can be.

I guess he pretty strong or pretty weak. But most of the time he is pretty strong - UTG called ur 3B oop, he at least has ATs+,TT+. Also, Yohan7 totally right, it is bad fold - you have enough chances to call here. Also, bcs of implied odds I would call here with suc nice pot odds.

Preflop: Why did u 3bet in first place?? did the villain had a high Fold 3b in UTG or some extra leaks?

I had in my chart call vs UTG with like 54s even. I needed some bluffs also, so decided that one of bluffs is 57s -can hit draws, not hard decidesions as with AJs if board is Axx.

But now tightened up the chart.

OTT we improve to OESD and villains check raise there looks mostly like a bluff so I would call that.

can you say what hands can be bluffs in his range?

If we call and it is a bluff, then we do not have implied odds plus we loose vs bluff with 7 high. So if he check - we have to bet river. But we are not sure if its a bluff. Ones say that it is value, others say it is bluff.

Maybe we can count that some part is value, because on NL5 people rarely bluff. Even if it is weird played value. Weird plays happen on NL5. So then we have implied odds.

The most important thing is that we hold just a draw too and it doesn't matter that much is he holding a bluff or a value hand.

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

Preflop: Why did u 3bet in first place?? did the villain had a high Fold 3b in UTG or some extra leaks?

I had in my chart call vs UTG with like 54s even. I needed some bluffs also, so decided that one of bluffs is 57s -can hit draws, not hard decidesions as with AJs if board is Axx.

But now tightened up the chart.

OTT we improve to OESD and villains check raise there looks mostly like a bluff so I would call that.

can you say what hands can be bluffs in his range?

If we call and it is a bluff, then we do not have implied odds plus we loose vs bluff with 7 high. So if he check - we have to bet river. But we are not sure if its a bluff. Ones say that it is value, others say it is bluff.

Maybe we can count that some part is value, because on NL5 people rarely bluff. Even if it is weird played value. Weird plays happen on NL5. So then we have implied odds.

I think 54s is a bad call preflop against a tight preflop rfi. And if you bluff 57s, you bluff 68s+ etc. Makes that your value to bluff ratio is way too big(too many bluffs compared to value), I assume you dont go broke with TT+ against UTG.

Originally posted by advancedTN1984

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

Preflop: Why did u 3bet in first place?? did the villain had a high Fold 3b in UTG or some extra leaks?

I had in my chart call vs UTG with like 54s even. I needed some bluffs also, so decided that one of bluffs is 57s -can hit draws, not hard decidesions as with AJs if board is Axx.

But now tightened up the chart.

OTT we improve to OESD and villains check raise there looks mostly like a bluff so I would call that.

can you say what hands can be bluffs in his range?

If we call and it is a bluff, then we do not have implied odds plus we loose vs bluff with 7 high. So if he check - we have to bet river. But we are not sure if its a bluff. Ones say that it is value, others say it is bluff.

Maybe we can count that some part is value, because on NL5 people rarely bluff. Even if it is weird played value. Weird plays happen on NL5. So then we have implied odds.

I think 54s is a bad call preflop against a tight preflop rfi. And if you bluff 57s, you bluff 68s+ etc. Makes that your value to bluff ratio is way too big(too many bluffs compared to value), I assume you dont go broke with TT+ against UTG.

Actually again checked old charts, and saw like year or 2 ago, my NL20 friend gave me chart where he calls 54s vs UTG. He said its from janda vs optimal oponent.
I do not know how lose is optimal oponent from UTG and how loose is the uknown reg. But hoped I do not make huge mistake.

I now asked is he still using this, waiting for reply.

And my BTN vs UTG 3bets before changing chart were: AA, KK, T8s-64s, A5s, A4s.
So 12 value, 28 bluffs. Bluffs 2.3 times than value.

What the ratio should be? And actually is it really that bad that we 3bet more? Because when I have AA, KK, they fold a ton. So I want to exploit their folds.

If they fold a ton it is probably fine as an exploit. But I think it's too wide of a range. In this case you don't know if they fold too much to your bluffs.

I think that vs UTG the ratio should be like 1:1 or 1:1.5 value:bluff.

Perhaps. But versus bad UTG it is surely better to just call. Or fold, and play 5♣:4♣: but no worse depending on how good/bad he/we are postflop. My idea is that UTG might make a 0.2 bb preflop mistake by folding slightly too much, but a 20 bb mistake on occasion when he plays postflop OOP versus our flopped straight flush:D