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3bet pot bluffing OTF/OTT with backdoor-draw. Is this even viable?

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ben002
Joined: 03.03.2018

Hi peoples! :f_drink:
I am still new to this game but trying my best. Here is a hand which I have played and where I think I made several mistakes. Would be nice to have some of your opinions!

$0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BB: $2.04 (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 20.59, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 34)
Hero (UTG): $4.34
MP: $2.16 (VPIP: 61.29, PFR: 9.68, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 32)
CO: $2.00 (VPIP: 13.73, PFR: 9.80, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 52)
BTN: $2.73 (VPIP: 21.05, PFR: 14.74, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 95)
SB: $2.00 (VPIP: 27.94, PFR: 23.53, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 70)

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K♦ Q♦

Hero raises to $0.06, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.18, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.39, 2 players) J♣ J♦ 5♠
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.18, Hero raises to $0.62, BTN calls $0.44

Turn: ($1.63, 2 players) 3♣
Hero bets $1.18, BTN raises to $1.93 and is all-in, fold,

:f_frown:


thoughts

villain:

I had 95 hands on this villain. Here are some stats:

Spoiler

pre-flop:

I am assigning him a linear range of:

QQ+,AQ+

Calling with KQs seems very bad in retrospect, as on most flop-textures most of villains combos will dominate me and I only have 26.50% equity against his range. I was giving myself good implied odds, which is how I justified the call when on the table.

flop/turn:

evaluation:
Without having properly defined my preflop-calling-range, I still somehow thought I would have range adavantage here, as he doesn‘t have any Jacks in his range. I was certainly mistaken, as with QQ+ (12 combos after discounting) he has 1/3, while AK and AQ make the rest of his range with 24 combos altogether. After discounting there wouldn‘t be a lot of Jacks left in my range and most of my potential non-jack combos are far behind his range.

action-plan:
As he seems to fold relatively often OTT I was planning to raise OTF and bet OTT. Also I had 2 good backdoor-draws, which I thought could make the attempt profitable.

chain of calculations:

Spoiler

If we assume that he would fold his AQ (i.e. 1/3 of his range) combos and only consider raw equity for his continuing range (I have 14.22% against it). The EV of my 2bet OTF is:

0.33*119 + 0.66*0.1422*163 - 62 = - 7.43

0.33*119 = fold equity
0.66 = likelyhood for villain to call
0.1422*163 = my EV for villains call
62 = my bet

When we do the same calculation for my bet OTT (assuming he would fold AK and maybe 1 of his QQ combos, which leaves me with 0% equity against his continuing range and creates with 14 combos a 54.17% probabillity for him to fold), I get an EV of:

0.5417*281 - 118 = 34.2177

0.5417*281 = fold equity
118 = my bet

If we merge both calculations together, assume that he wont 3bet OTF and that I have 0% equity if villain doesn‘t fold, we get an EV of:

0.33*57 + 0.66*(0.5417*281 - 180) = 0.47

0.33*57 = fold equity OTF
0.66 = probabillity to continue to the turn
0.541*281 = fold equity OTT
180 = my bet OTF + my bet OTT

...so my flop-turn play might actually have been about break-even.

mistakes which I think I made:

- calling pre-flop
- basing villains willingness to fold on a too small sample-size
- probably assigning a too weak pre-flop 3betting-range to villain (if I would exclude AQ for example I would have significantly less fold equity post-flop, which would make my post-flop line definitely -EV)
- not considering that a 3bet-pot plays different to a 2bet-pot and that which might have been a good - exploitative line for a 2bet-pot wasn‘t good in a 3bet-pot

questions:

What range should I give villain after his 3bet pre-flop?
How should my pre-flop-calling-range look like?
With which hands would you 2 bet the flop / play a similiar line?


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5 replies
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SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

Not sure why you didn’t received feedback yet, but it seems like an interesting hand.

Normal I would just fold this hand pre-flop against a 3bet, because this hand will play tough out of position in a 3bet pot. The flop and turn seems like a little bit optimistic on NL2 to check/raise and 2nd barrel again. Especially the turn bet is tricky, because he has not too much chips left, and you are committing yourself with air.

Cheers,
SDK1987


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Preflop I would also just fold. It might be a question of preference and depends a bit on how wide you open pre-flop but since I prefer opening a bit tighter, I wouldn't defend KQs. It often gets dominated.
You did assign villain quite tight 3betting range. I think he can have AJ hands also. Just putting him on QQ+,AQ+ is way too tight and only has value 3bets.

OTF you have 2 overcards and a BDFD so maybe you could call one and see how it goes but I really don't think raising here is the best option. You reasoned your play with villains fold to turn cbet stats but in reality 1) by raising the flop you are making his range even tighter so he is not gonna fold that much OTT 2) your sample size is waaaaaaaaaaaay too small to get even accurate flop stats 3) only that turn vs bet % stat alone doesn't reflect this specific situation very well.

I did look at your calculations. Could you elaborate what is that 119 in FE and 163 in EV. I calculated the semibluff EV with my excel calculator and I got -19BB EV.

Then there is another problem. You can't merge the EVs like that. When you calculate an EV for the flop decision, it already assumes there is no further action on later streets. You can't calculate it with your full 14% equity if there can be other bets that deny your equity realization.

So to answer your questions:
I would put villain on QQ+,AK, A2s-A5s, JJ with some frequency, also AJo+,ATs+ with some frequency. For me AJo would be a standard 3bet every time but you can just count some combos of those hands.
Your calling range preflop depends a bit on your preference and how wide you open in the first place. Mine would be mainly pocket pairs, about 88+ and then AK and AQs.
I probably wouldn't have a raising range on this flop.


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Dandiiik
Joined: 19.07.2009

Hi, nice long analysis. :f_drink:

When you have so few hands on someone you should use only VPIP/PFR in order to be able to categorize him. Other stats are not relevant and will make you come to bad conclusions. He is some sort of a TAG. Doesnt seem to be fishy. The range you put him on is too narrow. He will have some bluffs as well such as A2s-A5, also broadways like AJs. Out of position I would either fold or 4bet bluff in these positions. KQs is a nice blocker against his value range and if you call you will be often dominated which you wrote yourself. Since this is NL2, I would probably just fold in the end.

As played it is a fold on the flop. You are dominated, you dont have any showdown value, no draw. Backdoor draw is just not enough. By check raising you do not represent anything. Ask yourself what would you do with strong made hands, if you even have any in this spot. This is the kind of flop where you dont have to protect your hand so I wouldnt probably x/r anything here.

As played OTT you should probably cut the bluff. Your hand hasnt improved at all and for him it is not a scary card. He will call you with the whole range from the flop.

If you want to set some default ranges I recommend Weazels microstakes guide here on the forum. He provides default ranges for basic preflop situation - open-raise, cold call, 3bet and vs3bet. So you can take it from there :)


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RubbyDubby
Joined: 15.02.2018

@ben002 Dang.. I missed this one, sorry!

I'm in a hurry so will not read other comments now (will read later)

here my 2 cts.

If villain were me and I have QQ KK AA and you are are color coded I'll probably call.
Reason is with two J on the table you having a J is little.

Against a NIT (say 12/9) and an 'i dont know how you call those' (60/0) esay fold for me.


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ben002
Joined: 03.03.2018

Wow, thank you guys for the detailed replies!

Originally posted by SDK1987
Especially the turn bet is tricky, because he has not too much chips left, and you are committing yourself with air.

Thanks, that's an aspect I hardly ever think of. So the problem is: The smaller his SPR, the more likely he is to continue and the smaller my SPR the more I will feel urged to continue?

Originally posted by Dandiiik
By check raising you do not represent anything. Ask yourself what would you do with strong made hands, if you even have any in this spot.

Originally posted by la55i
I probably wouldn't have a raising range on this flop.

Thank you. That makes a lot of sense after looking at it again.

Originally posted by la55i
1) by raising the flop you are making his range even tighter so he is not gonna fold that much OTT 2) your sample size is waaaaaaaaaaaay too small to get even accurate flop stats 3) only that turn vs bet % stat alone doesn't reflect this specific situation very well.

Thank you! I will start considering more the context of stats.

Originally posted by la55i
I did look at your calculations. Could you elaborate what is that 119 in FE and 163 in EV. I calculated the semibluff EV with my excel calculator and I got -19BB EV.

119 is the pot + the bet which I put into it
163 is the pot + the bet I put into it + his call
To justify adding my own money to the pot I substract 62 (my bet-size).

I don't really know if this is the standard way to calculate but it feels sound.
Could you post your excel formula or tell me how it works if you don't mind? Maybe I am missing out on something here.

Originally posted by la55i
Then there is another problem. You can't merge the EVs like that. When you calculate an EV for the flop decision, it already assumes there is no further action on later streets. You can't calculate it with your full 14% equity if there can be other bets that deny your equity realization.

The assumption was that I would bet OTT if he calls OTF. So I thought, that the only spot where I have to consider equity is for his potential turn call. Where I gave myself 0% equity, which is pessimistic when we don't know the turn-card yet, but I think this gets evened out by the assumption that he wont 3bet OTF. So for the 66% probable scenario, that he defends OTF I only considered fold-equity on OTT and 0% equity for the case that he defends.
I think my choice of words, "merging", prabably wasn't the right way to describe what I actually tried to do.
After having thought about this again, I would recalculate it like that:

0.33*119 + 0.66*(0.5417*281 - 118) - 62 = - 0.15

OTF I am contributing 62 to the pot. For that I am getting a 0.33 chance to take down a pot of 119 (pot before my raise + the 62 I contributed).
With 0.66 probabillity I am contributing an additional 118 OTT for a 0.54 chance to take down a pot of 281 (pot after he calls the flop + my turn-bet of 118).

Originally posted by RubbyDubby
@ben002 Dang.. I missed this one, sorry!

No worries, friend. I have been following your advice!

Also thanks a lot for all the range-advice. I will dig deeper into this 3-betting stuff.


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