JJ 3bet pot/call down ?

Yeah 4 betting is one way to go about it, but it is a bit gay. I think your play was probably better. Bluff catching all the way.

This dude could have anything here.

His vpip is high but is his 3bet% high too?
Its not good you block straight draws and you have the j-clubs blocking some fds.
Therefore he is less likely on a draw. So he might be firing away with ak. But seems a high price to find out. I think because of the blockers and the potbet you could fold turn.

Originally posted by Maarten77
His vpip is high but is his 3bet% high too?
Its not good you block straight draws and you have the j-clubs blocking some fds.
Therefore he is less likely on a draw. So he might be firing away with ak. But seems a high price to find out. I think because of the blockers and the potbet you could fold turn.

Don't have 3bet info on GG poker but ye i agree i think folding is also very reasonable i don't really like making to many of these call downs.

Hello Reds,

With those sizes, it's an easy fold OTT for me.

Originally posted by Maarten77
His vpip is high but is his 3bet% high too?
Its not good you block straight draws and you have the j-clubs blocking some fds.
Therefore he is less likely on a draw. So he might be firing away with ak. But seems a high price to find out. I think because of the blockers and the potbet you could fold turn.

less likely to be on a draw because we have 1 club in our hand seems like odd logic....even when we have 2 clubs it is less likely but too many people fall into the trap of assuming villain doesn't hold FD when we hold 2 clubs and although it is less likely its never out of the question, in this case there are still 17 combos of suited clubs Ax and Kx hands, he may not have the weaker club draws like K2,K3 etc. but he is a fish and we don't know his 3bet% he may 3 bet wide from BU. What I want to try and understand from the hand is why villain is betting nearly pot on the flop does it indicate a value hand, a marginal hand or a bluff.When you dont have a HUD try and look for betting patterns ex. Some players like to bet pot on the river for value or as a bluff once you figure out which one it is it makes life alot easier in future hands. , observing can give you alot of information when you get an idea of what bet sizes they look to use in certain situations. Idk if you called him down here but if you did and he had top pair on the flop you can make a note that he likes to bet big with value hands. Part of playing with no HUD is going to be observing the table after you have folded a hand to get information from your opponents tendencies especially on hands when you get to see a showdown it will give you very important info about them and how they play.

Its hard to say what I would do in this hand because even though we have classified him as a fish , most fish are passive calling stations and we don't know , is this villain an aggro-fish ? does he have a high aggression frequency? all we know is he likes to play a wide range of hands. When passive fish start betting its usually a sign for concern I don't know if this guy is the typical fish or if hes aggro-fish. If hes aggro-fish I like the calls , if hes not I might fold flop or 4-bet fold to an all in pre-flop. Just my 2 cents

4betting preflop without reads is not something I advocate in MP.

Flop is already meh Reds, but calling is acceptable. I solved this one and leading OTF is in fact ok. BTN should have a lot of A high's whereas you shouldn't and that's why. Your range is more condensed, his should be more polarized.HiIs flop size is too big and that's another reason to justify a fold.

Turn is a check/fold as played. You don't need to call this pair + draw. The solver prefers to call KJs, ATs, AJs, JTs with a flushdraw/backdoor (air basically). THis may look weird, but I think it is because they block more nutted hands is his range and can improve and get called (implied odds) when they don't.
KQs, QJs, QTs make better turn calls. AQ should check/raise some times. AKs, KTs bluff check/raises.

River is still a fold despite the odds. You block JTs, but this hand should not be betting the turn.

Originally posted by zetozinho
4betting preflop without reads is not something I advocate in MP.

Flop is already meh Reds, but calling is acceptable. I solved this one and leading OTF is in fact ok. BTN should have a lot of A high's whereas you shouldn't and that's why. Your range is more condensed, his should be more polarized.HiIs flop size is too big and that's another reason to justify a fold.

Turn is a check/fold as played. You don't need to call this pair + draw. The solver prefers to call KJs, ATs, AJs, JTs with a flushdraw/backdoor (air basically). THis may look weird, but I think it is because they block more nutted hands is his range and can improve and get called (implied odds) when they don't.
KQs, QJs, QTs make better turn calls. AQ should check/raise some times. AKs, KTs bluff check/raises.

River is still a fold despite the odds. You block JTs, but this hand should not be betting the turn.

Thanks for that villain was a bit splashy in a lot of like 30bb-50bb pots which is why i justified calling down this one although i don't much like calling it down.

Originally posted by zetozinho
4betting preflop without reads is not something I advocate in MP.

Flop is already meh Reds, but calling is acceptable. I solved this one and leading OTF is in fact ok. BTN should have a lot of A high's whereas you shouldn't and that's why. Your range is more condensed, his should be more polarized.HiIs flop size is too big and that's another reason to justify a fold.

When you solve does it take into account villains tendancies and everything else? this is important stuff
Turn is a check/fold as played. You don't need to call this pair + draw. The solver prefers to call KJs, ATs, AJs, JTs with a flushdraw/backdoor (air basically). THis may look weird, but I think it is because they block more nutted hands is his range and can improve and get called (implied odds) when they don't.
KQs, QJs, QTs make better turn calls. AQ should check/raise some times. AKs, KTs bluff check/raises.

River is still a fold despite the odds. You block JTs, but this hand should not be betting the turn.

Using a solver is not taking villains tendencies and patterns into account, playing GTO at these levels is going to leave lots of money on the tables. Whats wrong with a 4-bet here? we have the 4th best hand in the game. OP says villain is playing splashy with a high VPIP this is showing villain is doing something wrong , we need to adjust to take advantage of this. GTO is obviously useful and I see why you guys are using solvers, if we think we need to play like a gto bot all the time we are making substantial errors that is why it is important to adjust, unless villain is not making mistakes but rather has adjusted to a tight table full of players who are folding too often andis essentially taking advantage of his opponents ,in which case he is getting out of line and we still need to adjust since on average his ranges will be weaker with his 67 VPIP. We don't know his Aggression Factor but if he was playing splashy we can assume its not very low.

Against players who are playing poorly maximally exploiting them is your best option thats why I prefer to watch tables even after I have folded to see hole cards and play patterns so I can gain information needed to do so.

Using JJ for 4bet-fold is pretty bad idea in general. If assuming villain is on wild side preflop we can 4bet and stack off. 180 hands should give some indicator of that if we have followed table action.

JJ with club is pretty bad bluff catcher as said before for blocking villain semibluff range. Having Jc won't change situation hugely but it's still card that can be fairly often in villain range for 3betting preflop. Point of using blockers is often to limit number of hands that want to continue in pot. Because if we hero call down all hands that have showdown value... Well it's pretty obvious issue.

So to me this hand is call cbet and fold to turn barrel. But as said cbet is huge and if villain has been barreling often it's likely best to just fold flop. It's not like we are thrilled to face action on most turns outside of J.

Originally posted by ghaleon
Using JJ for 4bet-fold is pretty bad idea in general. If assuming villain is on wild side preflop we can 4bet and stack off. 180 hands should give some indicator of that if we have followed table action.

JJ with club is pretty bad bluff catcher as said before for blocking villain semibluff range. Having Jc won't change situation hugely but it's still card that can be fairly often in villain range for 3betting preflop. Point of using blockers is often to limit number of hands that want to continue in pot. Because if we hero call down all hands that have showdown value... Well it's pretty obvious issue.

So to me this hand is call cbet and fold to turn barrel. But as said cbet is huge and if villain has been barreling often it's likely best to just fold flop. It's not like we are thrilled to face action on most turns outside of J.

I wasn't talking about in general when I said 4-bet fold JJ, I was talking about this hand against this player . If villain is playing splashy there is a chance he may be borderline maniac with 67VPIP,but I don't know anything other than what OP is describing. To combat maniacs we need to be calling down with our strong hands and this is 1 of them. We wouldn't like to see a high card come on the turn but if it comes we cant be scared of it either,this guy is playing a wide range of hands a high-card turn doesn't mean its hit his range either and we do need to be calling down with hands that have good showdown equity versus these players ranges. Its not an obvious issue it's how we counter them. If we just fold JJ every-time there's an over-card on the flop to a splashy fish he is exploiting us. I don't know what exactly to do because we have no idea of his betting patterns etc. but its not that simple, without any reads it can be folded but I would strive to observe and understand the player in the future hands.

I might just 4 bet jam against this guy, and then I’d feel sorry for him when he shows up with 44.

Casey is right. You should know loads more about this guy by now. These fish are generally real aggressive or real passive. If you knew whether he was aggressive or passive it would make this one a lot easier to assess. If you knew how often he 3bets. Or how often he cbets. Or something about his betsizing then this would be much easier to assess.

Fish are the easiest people to read and are the most profitable players to face, so you always want to try to find out what they are doing with their range.

We know that his VPIP is extreme high, but his PFR and 3bet% could be low. If his PFR was extreme high a stack off pre-flop isn't to crazy, but if he's loose passive this isn't a great idea. As played a fold on turn is fine for sure. You are committed if you call and I doubt he has to many bluffs in his range, but that depends on stats and reads you have on him.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Originally posted by Casey55

Originally posted by ghaleon
Using JJ for 4bet-fold is pretty bad idea in general. If assuming villain is on wild side preflop we can 4bet and stack off. 180 hands should give some indicator of that if we have followed table action.

JJ with club is pretty bad bluff catcher as said before for blocking villain semibluff range. Having Jc won't change situation hugely but it's still card that can be fairly often in villain range for 3betting preflop. Point of using blockers is often to limit number of hands that want to continue in pot. Because if we hero call down all hands that have showdown value... Well it's pretty obvious issue.

So to me this hand is call cbet and fold to turn barrel. But as said cbet is huge and if villain has been barreling often it's likely best to just fold flop. It's not like we are thrilled to face action on most turns outside of J.

I wasn't talking about in general when I said 4-bet fold JJ, I was talking about this hand against this player . If villain is playing splashy there is a chance he may be borderline maniac with 67VPIP,but I don't know anything other than what OP is describing. To combat maniacs we need to be calling down with our strong hands and this is 1 of them. We wouldn't like to see a high card come on the turn but if it comes we cant be scared of it either,this guy is playing a wide range of hands a high-card turn doesn't mean its hit his range either and we do need to be calling down with hands that have good showdown equity versus these players ranges. Its not an obvious issue it's how we counter them. If we just fold JJ every-time there's an over-card on the flop to a splashy fish he is exploiting us. I don't know what exactly to do because we have no idea of his betting patterns etc. but its not that simple, without any reads it can be folded but I would strive to observe and understand the player in the future hands.

If he has been really splashy preflop we probably want to 4bet pre to stack off and not 4bet-fold. That was my point in earlier post. JJ is simply not hand to use as 4bet-fold in HU scenario.

OP probably didnt have such crazy aggro reads as he didnt mention it or he might just be multitabling so much that there is no time to follow opponents. Whatever point is even if we fold JJ with club there are still half of those left to call with. Of course versus absolute maniac we can make argument of just going into x-c mode with most showdown hands but that info was not available.

oh okay.can you elaborate on the if we fold JJ with club there are half of those left to call with ? do you mean the other remaining combos or something? I'm not that advanced so I don't understand.

Villain didn't stand out as a manic but certainly new where the raise button was and is likely capable of turning up with worse here i'm just not sure how often.I did have one note that ive noticed which was
"matching bets = true ?"
And i put that note when i see someone pot for value ready to confirm the note if i see it again.It's something i overlooked in the op and in the hand and it's pretty important as i had previously seen this villain pot for value.Ive only just noticed it when looking at the hand history again.

Originally posted by Casey55
oh okay.can you elaborate on the if we fold JJ with club there are half of those left to call with ? do you mean the other remaining combos or something? I'm not that advanced so I don't understand.

Yeah there are 6 combos of JJ and if we take out ones with club it will leave 3 left.