Online poker startegy as opposed to poker strategy

Hi TheWaddy7,
You've now posted 4 times.
All 4 of them -- in some measure -- appear to indicate that you believe that the game is rigged.
If you have evidence, please present it to the proper authorities.

The games are still profitable -- look at some of the blogs and you'll see several players doing quite well.

It is quite a different world after Black Friday.
Edges are smaller, games are tighter, players (in general) are quite a bit better.
The advent of solvers has changed things too -- now players are all about balancing ranges rather than just pushing hard with good hands.

Incidentally, I personally have witnessed none of the phenomena you describe.

All the best,
VS

Do you believe that following any professional poker player publication for the real life game, can still be successful online?

If so, if you could recommend one.

Could you also clarify who 'the proper authorities' are?

Thank you

Originally posted by TheWaddy7
Do you believe that following any professional poker player publication for the real life game, can still be successful online?

I have no experience with any professional poker player publication.
There are a lot of companies out there right now that offer coaching/staking deals, but I have no experience with any of them, so couldn't recommend any.
There are also a lot of courses that charge a bunch of money for what is available here on PokerStrategy.com at no cost.

Originally posted by TheWaddy7
Could you also clarify who 'the proper authorities' are?

Since you pick on 888 do the following:
Go to their website: https://www.888poker.com/poker-software/
Scroll to the bottom:
You'll see a list of icons for various organisations, governments, government organisations and so on.
I can't say for certain that all will be available in all countries.
If you find the one for Gambling Commission, follow it.
On the page is a link for how to complain.
There are also links to the gov't of Gibraltar, the gov't of Malta that may be of use.

Best of luck :gl:,
VS

And here lies the problem. There are no 'authorities'. I have spoken directly with The Gambling Commission and they told me they issue their certificates purely based on the findings of the 3rd party eCogra audit. They look at nothing to do with online poker and have no-one there qualified to deal with any complaint of a nature to do with the game, only that a poker site is conducting themselves within the guidelines. They are the first to admit their powers are extremely limited.

As we know and even you will agree, this creates a major conflict of financial interest. It is not in eCogras interest to suspend a site that pays them huge amounts to do audits, otherwise it cuts off their own income.
But hey, if you think thats a fair way to 'regulate' online poker, i guess there is nothing in there that you can see is open to manipulation!
I find it odd, to say the least, that forums like this always side with online poker sites ... when you obviously love the game to bother doing a site, yet have no interest in protecting the players when at the very, very least... you can absolutely see that online poker is open to manipulation due to its set up, even if you think its not happening.

Well, you picked one of the the three suggestions.
Let us know when you have contacted the other two.

But that seems like a lot of effort.
If you are so sure that the game is crooked, don't play the game.

I have never personally seen evidence that a site was crooked.
I have definitely seen players colluding though. At the time I reported it to PartyPoker, and got their thanks and a refund.
I can't remember if it was a full or partial, but I think it was a return of buy-in.

And you're right -- look at what happened in the Mike Postle incident.
Because the courts won't try the case, there will always be those who think that he and Stones "got away with it"

Another think to consider:
If this happens to you -- it must happen exactly like this for every other poker player.
If that were true, how is it that you and only you have noticed this?
Or is it a possibility that -- however improbable -- that you lost 400 consecutive times immediately after winning a large pot.

Cheers,
VS

I have posted it, as like you say, i am hoping others have noticed and i was looking for some backing.

I think more than losing 403 consecutive all ins preflop would be highly unlikely given thats it 50/50.... losing 403, ALL to 3 of a kind OR better... well i can only come to one conclusion, what else can i possibly deduce from those figures?

I wouldnt describe it as 'crooked'. Online poker is a business, business meetings discuss how any company can 'maximise profit'.

After Black Friday, online poker HAD to absolutely maximise profit to survive. Surely you people out there noticed a sudden change to Pokerstars type hands????

The clear way an online poker site can maximise profit is by having a deck that provides a huge amount of unlikely outcomes, especially on the river. Pokerstars had been doing this already and sites took the plunge as it was that or go bust.

This way, the poorer player chasing rainbows, does not go bust as odds dictate.... to lose players just through playing consistently badly would be a disaster for these companies. Site traffic is the number one earner, for rake and fees. On top of this. when a player is chasing his inside straight draw and you have flopped trips.... for him to hit it on the river is going to swell the pot.... ie it maximises rake.

The good players, will always make a modest profit anyway and will plod away like myself, so they retain them too (i continue to play, as its the only opportunity i have to play the game i love, however diluted version of the real game it is).

I dont see it as crooked, i see it as companies taking advantage of the poor, poor standard of 'regulation', knowing those who regulate it (ie The Gambling Commision) openly admit there is no-one there qualified to even begin to look at it in any shape or form. There is no threat to them whatsoever in this technique of maximising company profit.

And who can blame them? Ecogra, i would describe as crooked, as they are clearly taking money to turn the other cheek. The Gambling Commission have admitted to me, however, that they are beginning to look closer at testing companies.... but they are extremely weak and im not sure they will ever have the manpower or even the will to change anything.

The Gambling Commision have lumped online poker in with bingo, slots etc and dont see it as a game of any skill. Obviously slots have 'a fixed percentage pay out', which is seen as legal. Im sure they would not even fine a site, let alone shut it down, just for it not being totally random, as poker is just pure luck to them.

Originally posted by TheWaddy7
I think more than losing 403 consecutive all ins preflop would be highly unlikely given thats it 50/50.... losing 403, ALL to 3 of a kind OR better... well i can only come to one conclusion, what else can i possibly deduce from those figures?

Where do you get the idea that it is 50/50 pre-flop -- even Omaha doesn't have that good equity pre-flop.
What else can one conclude? Is it possible that you're calling all-ins pre-flop with hands that can't improve enough to beat trips?
Or worse, shoving such hands yourself?
You sound like you know what you're doing though, so let's rule that out.

Originally posted by TheWaddy7
I wouldnt describe it as 'crooked'. Online poker is a business, business meetings discuss how any company can 'maximise profit'.

After Black Friday, online poker HAD to absolutely maximise profit to survive. Surely you people out there noticed a sudden change to Pokerstars type hands????

I noticed no change in the hands. There was a huge sudden increase in the skill of the players though.

Originally posted by TheWaddy7
The clear way an online poker site can maximise profit is by having a deck that provides a huge amount of unlikely outcomes, especially on the river. Pokerstars had been doing this already and sites took the plunge as it was that or go bust.

Although you don't use the term "crooked" the behaviour describe is unethical at the very least.
There have been accusations in the past, and of all the sites PokerStars is the biggest target. I'm sure you realize that in the past statistical studies have been done to see if it is really true. Do a search for "action flops" to find some.

Originally posted by TheWaddy7
This way, the poorer player chasing rainbows, does not go bust as odds dictate.... to lose players just through playing consistently badly would be a disaster for these companies. Site traffic is the number one earner, for rake and fees. On top of this. when a player is chasing his inside straight draw and you have flopped trips.... for him to hit it on the river is going to swell the pot.... ie it maximises rake.

Poorer players go bust all the time. Most just leave. Some make "online poker is rigged" posts before they go, some do not.

There are currently 94,000 players online at PokerStars
PokerStars states

in https://www.pokerstars.com/help/articles/bb-shuffle-basic/10727/
Once the deck is shuffled, it is set, and the order in which the cards are dealt cannot be changed.
and
We have dealt over 200 billion hands and freely give real money hand histories anytime someone requests them.

200 billion hands eh?
Let's round it off and say they've been around for 20 years so 10 billion hands a year.
A deck of 52 cards can be dealt in ways.
At 10 billion (10E+09) hands per year, it would take 8.07E+67 years to deal each possible arrangement of cards once.
It is highly probable, the some permutations have occurred more than once.
Incidentally, the age of the universe is assumed to be in the order of 13 billion years.
That gets us through around 1/3 of the possible permutations of a single deck of cards.

Nobody has ever come up with a plausible reason for a poker site to doctor the Random Number Generator.
Doing so would risk killing the goose that lays golden eggs.

For you own enjoyment I suggest that you follow the link I posted above.
On that page there are links to other parts of their site, such as a 5-minute video describing how the RNG works

In the 10 years I've been a mod here at PokerStrategy.com I have seen these accusations come up over and over.
And over.
And there will be hundreds more.
I have personally never seen any evidence to suggest that online poker is anything but fair and honest.

I've played live poker for a total of about 8 hours lifetime.
In that time I have seen a Royal flush beat 4 Aces, where the A♠: fell on the river.

Rigged? I doubt it. The dealers were just ordinary joes

Best of luck :gl:,
VS

Where do you get the idea that it is 50/50 pre-flop -- even Omaha doesn't have that good equity pre-flop.

Because you either win or lose. Two possible outcomes, thus 50/50.

'Where do you get the idea that it is 50/50 pre-flop -- even Omaha doesn't have that good equity pre-flop'.

I believe one hand heads up against another in omaha, is very rarely as good as 60% against another preflop. I would say the hands these players want to go all in with are moderate at best, therefore its usually a complete coin flip.

'I noticed no change in the hands. There was a huge sudden increase in the skill of the players though'.

I would say there has been a huge increase in pure aggression. Not skill. In heads up, its usually what i call 'button pressers'. Raise preflop, bet the pot out of position on the flop. Completely guessing that the opponent wont be able to call, with no info whatsoever. Its mechanical. They dont deviate from the strategy, no poker going on as their action will be the same every hand.

I can honestly say i can never win in a day, anything like what i can lose in a day. I can easily lose 10 heads up in a day, all to 20% and below chances.... but can never clear 10 wins in a day with the same odds. (i can win steadily for 7 days and lose that profit in one session) Maths doesnt add up. If you havent noticed the change in hands and are not losing consistently to these odds at an alarming rate, then it just must be me thats incredibly, incredibly unlucky. And as i say, if i get a 1700-300 lead and we get it all in preflop, i am winning precisely none of them whatsoever. My ability to finish off these games is completely taken away from me in that scenario.

On that basis, before Black Friday i was sponsored $500 pre day to play and could make a decent second income. With the constant overturning of odds now, that is just not possible as the edge has just been taken away.

'I've played live poker for a total of about 8 hours lifetime'.......

You saw that hand, royal flush over quads, you may see it once more in a lifetime of live poker, it can happen. You log in for any given hour online and you will see a mountain of crazy hands, all that would make 'Phil Hellmuths bad beats and lucky draws' book. Hands CAN happen and sites love to hide behind that fact.... can they happen at the rate we see, mathematically? No. You are backing the sites in that you are suggesting its the sheer amount of hands you see online that we see this.... but guess what?
The odds dont change. So if you get beaten by a 2% chance, that means mathematically you are likely to lose 2 times in 100 of these situations. Seeing more hands just means you see that 100 hands a lot faster, not lose more times to it. In fact, getting your opponents all in with little odds of losing at a much faster rate than a live game, is the perfect scenario to optimise profit.... if the maths come out anything like it should, But it doesnt.

403-0 losses all in preflop kind of highlights the maths we are talking about online...... I dont need to look at anything other then these figures to know there is something badly, badly wrong, especially as every single one was trips or better.

And also, it is as you say 'unethical' to a poker player. But this is the thing, PLAYERS are outraged that a deck should be anything but random... but only POKER PLAYERS understand that. Only the players and not the sites, regulators or auditors.

The Gambling Commission doesnt understand poker is anything other than luck. I even think eCogra and testing sites dont understand poker odds and purely look at how often a card comes out... and NOT how it affects a hand. If they say look our testing shows over millions of hands that the ace hearts comes out round about the same as the 3 clubs, these organisations would see this as proof of randomness.

When i have said to The Gambling Commission that i have cleared $30,000 in games, they look at me like i have two heads and are like 'and your complaining?'. They dont get it. The Gambling Commissions prime objective is to protect the gambler from spending beyond their means and making sure sites operate within the legalities.

The fact that good players are not winning anything like what maths dictate is not a concern to them. In fact, it makes their job easier if the wins are spread more evenly. I am happy for online poker to be what it is and have said to them the only concern i have is.... There should be a disclaimer banner saying 'site is for entertertainment purposes only and will not mirror the odds of a true deck'. Then we know where we stand and we will no longer be driven mad by the unrelenting impossibilities.

Players sanity is really tested at times and i fear for the young talented player, who plays beyond his means consistently losing to long odds, as hes told he is playing with a fair deck. I think it is only fair to know what he is up against before deciding to play,

Wow, I need a liter of coffee for this.

I think that this thread has run its course.
OP has made his point, and a rebuttal has been offered.

Unless there is something new to offer, let's move on.

To sum up:
OP believes that
 poker sites do not deal the cards fairly
 players at some poker sites do not win at the rate that the odds would indicate
 he has evidence of this

I hoped to learn something from the post.

I think all i learnt that was new was.... if you cant find your scarf, use a cat!