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check raised on flop, this call burning money?

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Casey55
Joined: 19.07.2010

V stats 23/23/ 3/1 post flop aggression (what does this mean <--)

I feel like I am being check-raised pretty frequently lately, I doubt this is the best spot to defend but if villain is check raising all FD's, OESD's , gutters etc. we have about the equity to call. Should we assume the check-raise in 3b pot is just under-bluffed and fold flop? we have backdoor FD and over-card but do you think we should just get out of the way?

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $2.42 (121 bb)
MP: $1.51 (76 bb)
CO (Hero): $8.11 (406 bb)
BU: $1.94 (97 bb)
SB: $2.24 (112 bb)
BB: $2.80 (140 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO with 6 A
UTG raises to $0.06, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $0.18, 3 players fold, UTG calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.39) 2 8 4 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.13, UTG raises to $0.32, Hero calls $0.19

Turn: ($1.03) 7 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.50, CO (Hero) folds


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VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Originally posted by Casey55
V stats 23/23/ 3/1 post flop aggression (what does this mean <--)

Post-flop aggression comes in two flavours
:diamond:  Afq == aggression frequency is the number of times they raise or bet as a percentage of opportunities
:diamond:  Af == aggression factor is the number of times they bet or raise divided by the number of times they just call

If you're using PT4, you can click "configure", then "Statistics" and look up the definition of any stat.

As for the hand, it isn't the flop call that is burning money, it is the pre-flop 3Bet.
For me that hand is a fold vs UTG

I checked this in Equilab:

       Equity     Win     Tie
MP2    59.71%  58.73%   0.98% { 55+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AJo+, KQo }
CO     40.29%  39.31%   0.98% { A6s }

So it appears I may be wrong to fold this.
But if is a 3Bet you still need to have some equity increase OTF beyond a backdoor flush draw and a backdoor straight draw. With the weak kicker, even an A isn't likely much help

On that flop your equity actually drops:

Board: 2♦8♣4♦
       Equity     Win     Tie
MP2    66.57%  66.27%   0.31% { QQ-66, AsAc, KdKh, KdKs, KdKc, AQs+, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, AKo }
CO     33.43%  33.12%   0.31% { A6s }


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Stackoffski
Joined: 08.09.2021

Hmm at the BTN I would 3bet A6s vs the CO sometimes and certainly not all the time.

To do it vs EP I think you really need a read that he is really getting out of line. This is a bluff with an Ace blocker and nut fd equity and it is mostly going to work if your opponent is wide, so that he has a big folding range (pre and/or postflop).

Now you have strong range to begin with (EP), and you make it even stronger with the 3bet.

The equities are good to look at but assume there will be 5 cards.


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SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

Villain seems like a decent player based on the stats, but the sample of hands is unknown.

I would earlier call pre-flop than 3bet or villian folds a lot on 3bets, but even than I would call most of the time. Especially so deep you want to control the pot and A6s has some playability, but could be dominated sometimes.

Cheers,
SDK1987


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lmr1983
Joined: 04.08.2007

Without any intention of insulting.

Imo if the VPIP and the PFR is equal, that hints on a low samplesize. They are likely not equal at considerable samples.
You should say how big is the samplesize. As others say, a 23/23 is likely a regular, or someone regular-like if the samplesize is bigger than 30-50hand.
Below that it is maybe just a coincidence.

Although an unknown opponent should be considered a regular unless we have other tells, or until Villain proves something else. As others pointed out fishy tells are like:
- openposting the blinds in a bad position (I would not say I never open post at a limit that i crush, but I only openpost close to the button, and then I steal, likely at an already well known and soft table after having a rest :) )
- being non full stack
- often having inexplicable betsizes
- playing very very slowly (using a lot of time, although sometimes mass multitablers can have similar timing tells, but they will be identified soon)
- playing without apparently thinking is not much better, especially if it is check-calling (although weaker mass multitablers sometimes or even often are doing this as well)
If you see a combo of these then villain is at least suspicious.
(This is a safe bet at the lowest few stakes.)

The postflop stat variables start to converge to reflecting the opponent's style slower of course. Flop stats are saying something considerable at 100 hands+,
and going to be close to accurate above 500+. The later streets require even more sample. For example we do not really have accurate stats on some specific river variables without having multiple thousands of fresh hands. Although I would punt dataminers, hand traders and buyers, and exaggerated softwares as they currently are :)

So I consider you have a little samplesize as VPIP = PFR. The 1 as postflop AF is not a high one at a considerable sample size, I would say it is on the low side, so I would not go yolo against a player who is playing back while has an AF of 1 at sample sizes bigger than 150-200 hands. That AF 1 hints on Villain being a nit, a passive TAG-like, or quite card-dead.
Vorpal correctly explained these two stats, AFq is another story. I used both, initially AF, but then I liked AFq more, I felt that AFq is probably a bit more expressive, as it is an easy to "feel" quite simple ratio.

At a little samplesize I would fold flop after being check-raised. At nl2 I would likely cbet a bit bigger if I want to bluff cbet against an unknown.

As I see, with 600-700 posts you are either a tourney player or not having too much relevant experience at cashgames.
Then I would say the recently posted K9s 3bet vs an isolation vs unknown and this A6s 3bet without tells and reads and sample is marginal , or loose considering that you are uncertain in your game.
If the regulars see this, you have a problem, even at nl2.
I see some inaccuracies at your analysis board posts, for example you sometimes said "check-raise" or "check-call" while hero or villain who could or should have done that was in position. But positive that you are here and trying to get better.

I would get my act together, learn more, and fix my game a bit, before going this loose and aggressive.
Or I would go to smaller rooms, there are still rooms where one can win as a passive nit, without the necessity of trying to build 3bet image like this.
Aggressive image or image means little, or less at the bottom stakes, so it is not entirely necessary to try to build an image all of the time. It is more important to do what feels good and to not do what not feels good. Even fishes can win mtts, even nits can win money, quality nits can win quite a lot of money. Forcing "not feels good" things can give you a long lasting tilt, but a tasteless fold is like nothing.
Although I would not completely forget about my image, for example if someone not has an aggressive image, then it is quite pointless to 3bet/5bet push vs a nit UTG with QQ, or 4betting it in the same situation from UTG. If the opposing nit is not a fool, then that will be a flip at best, while with calling IP you will have many options. Or 3barrell banging a TP on a bad board will not be so good with a card dead image against a decent opponent. So of course the image can be sticky sometimes, but you can use the advantages of it. For example as a nit you can bravely experiment with some loose but reasonable 3bets, slowly extend the range (day by day, week by week), because they will fear you (or at least your range :P).

If there are non aggressive regs, a weak button, or fishes in the blinds present (especially in this case, flatting is much better than 3betting), it is ok to flat call this A6s, although a wheel Ace (so A2s-A5s with which u can have a straight would be definitely better for that purpose). The intention of that flat call is something like set-mining, to go for flushes and straights, and for a careful play for the occasionally hit TPWK.

Practically u have a weak hand on the flop that can improve with its backdoor outs, and the UTG 3bet calling range is quite strong, checking behind is considerable sometimes. So If you got there, cbet a bit bigger, or check behind.

If you are winning with the approach seen in these posts, I congratulate, carry on, learn a bit more, you will crush nl2 soon or already crushing. If not, then tighten up a bit, because you can be sure, the better regs are perceiving this even at nl2, especially at the big rooms, and learn even more.

As a former top of the micros, bottom of the lowstakes reg, who quitted at halfway to the black member, but at least I made considerable money from start to finish, I can give these advices to you. I'm not diminishing these stakes, I recently restarted playing, seeing not too much new, but found some rooms and limits to beat in this corona era :) GL


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LMcrow
Joined: 15.08.2006

A6s and A5s is doing fine in position as a 3bet semibluff against regulars or players who are not completly nitty. or nitty and fold a lot to 3bets.
You are basicly saying yes you open utg but i have a really good hand and have position on you so you have to fold a lot.

However it can backfire against nitts which will 4bet or call you a lot(because they tend to open the nutty hands) . Or overly aggresive regulars which will start to 4bet a lot.

Anyway UTG calls and he has probably strong hands here like 99-QQ sometimes or KQs+ and the flop is not favourable for your actual hand, start check back here.
You cant expect many folds here. So going for a checkback try realize your backdoor flush equity its better. Sometimes also cb AA here.

As played its a fold on the flop against the utg c/r sizing. Its a bit too much to call.


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