Khiiniau struggling with micro PLO

GL with yr journey from an another old fart that plays PLO:f_drink:

One might say that when you know the rules, you already beat an everage micro player in PLO pools.

Jokes aside, if we list the common problems of players at PLO10 or lower, the list is quite long. Once you understand some basic fundamentals, you can already cross over most of that list.

Time for first update.

In June-August I played lot of hands in PLO2 fast and got data for analyzing with HM. Also some in PLO5 fast when amount of players was small, no maniacs and 3*reward points offered for min 10min continuouos play. In PLO5 fast during those 3* times most hands are 4-handed and I feel quite confident when playing against non-maniacs.

When comparing PLO2 and fast PLO2, in fast there are much more good players and maniacs, both crazy and clever. I have HM data starting from 2018 and there are at least 2 Stones who played already that time so propably they are making some money.

In September I have played mainly normal PLO2 multitabling 2 tables. I feel confident with 2 tables (also in fast) but for 3-4 tabling I should have bigger display than my 27". And pokersites have habbit to deal to me almost same cards in all tables same time that easily provides to mistakes. So I try to concentrate to 2 tabling.

In opening post I promised to show some stats. This is a selected 102 hands early in the morning when Europe still sleep. Those the most profitable hours to play for me. 102 hands is of course nothing to make any real analyze but this small session shows that I'm a former FL Holdem player:
- Flop sbet% high, even in this session it was very succesfull. I have tried to get it lower but that FL habbit is difficult to remove from spine.
- F-T-R cbet sizes probably too high-> especialy on river lost value when villain folding smaller flush, straight, 2 pairs and smaller sets that they will call or shove with small river cbet. Of course I'm happy with good non-showdown winnings but could get more in SD with better cbet-sizing.

Donking and reacting to donk bets needs also improving for former FL player. But yes, I have learned to donk in some cases:s_thumbsup:

My VPIP during these selected 100 hands was very high because so many fishy players limping or calling UTG 2bb opening before me and I have a hand with some potential enough to call. Normally it's about 24%

Adding to tasks: Improve cbet-sizing

Some progres in cbet sizing?

Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

BTN: $2.11 (105.5 bb)
SB: $3.21 (160.5 bb)
BB: $1.10 (55 bb)
Hero (UTG): $2.15 (107.5 bb)
MP: $2.25 (112.5 bb)
CO: $3.44 (172 bb)

SB posts $0.01, BB posts $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K♥: 5♥: A♠: A♦:
Hero raises to $0.07, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.07, fold, BB calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.22, 3 players) 6♣: T♥: A♥:
BB checks, Hero bets $0.16, BTN calls $0.16, fold

Turn: ($0.54, 2 players) 3♥:
Hero bets $0.39, BTN calls $0.39

River: ($1.32, 2 players) 9♣:
Hero bets $0.64, BTN calls $0.64

Results: $2.60 pot ($0.09 rake)
Final Board: 6♣: T♥: A♥: 3♥: 9♣:

Hero shows K♥: 5♥: A♠: A♦:: (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 71%, Flop 100%, Turn 100%)

BTN mucks Q♥: 4♥: Q♠: 6♥:: (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 29%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)

Hero wins $2.51

Flop is good but on turn I would personally go for pot size bet. Good strategy in general on flushing turn like this is to polarize your range into strong flush or bluff. Well there is some top sets that might want to pot as well but that is more of a niche so would not worry about that.

If we have hand like AT, TT or J or lower flush we should be checking for limited showdown value and some chance of improvement. Also wraps without high flush blocker should fall into checking range.

So by potting we get either max value when value betting or max pressure if bluffing. Anyway turn is not imo huge deal as we still do bet on big side.

Big issue is our river sizing. Question is how big difference is in villain call frequency between half or full pot? When villain calls turn he mainly has flush. Usually straight draws are just folding but set and potentially some two pairs will call.

Those two pairs and sets are supposed to mainly fold versus river barrel and flushes are often calling down. I would imagine especially at these micro limits we will have hard time to get flushes to fold.

So even if our half pot gets called probably bit more often it's hard to see it would be called twice as often. Which means our half pot bet can easily be losing like 20bb of value in EV.

But yeah this is good spot to just go for pot turn, pot river and leverage your whole stack. If SPR is lower we can start using smaller sizing and still leverage whole stack. Good to keep in mind that if SPR on turn is 4 we need pot sizings to get allin by river.

Small update

First target: to be better than average player in micro PLO.
2nd: to get more out from HM
First financial target: to beat the rake in September 2023 in non-fast micro PLO.

All targets from opening post so far OK.

Micro PLO is mentally very heavy. I'm BTN with AAKKds. UTG and MP limp, CO raise. I 3bet and all 5 call. Flop 259 rainbow, SB all-in and all others call or raise AI, I fold. SB wins 400bb with 22xx. Some times I think that I'm in wrong game when try to play Omaha but others just buy lottery tickets.

Bad karma. I'll never again write about monthly targets before end of month. Yesterday had one session 240 hands before posting here, +200bb. After posting 147 hands session -600bb. 2 own mistakes, 2 bad beats from flop 85% and 73%, 3 coinflips from flop lost (luckily most of villains with non-full stack) and and most of hands had to fold on flop or turn.

Still + on monthly level. Looks like I can't renew my PS Gold for next month, will reach about 400-450 points if I continue to play only normal PLO2.

Typical hand in microPLO. Hero opened from CO, no action after that, BB won with flopped hand. Impossible to guess on preflop what those 60-100 VPIP players have.

Well not squeezing with AKK7ds from SB was nice from that fellow

Originally posted by ghaleon
Well not squeezing with AKK7ds from SB was nice from that fellow
I guess so. If he would do that he would most likely won the hand right away or the BB is a bigger PLO fish than me:f_rolleyes:

The thing is that when tables are full of call-happy players and most pots are multiway, it just need patience. We 3bet, everyone calls, and we fold until we hit the flop. If our range is stronger, we will hit better in the long run. It's often just waiting for the big pot to happen, but when it does we win quite a lot.

It's fishing: you can't force or rush, you have to wait until you catch the big one. There are session where you don't catch anything significant, but in the end you will catch more than you lose.

So true what Kyyberi said. Just played hand.

Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

Hero (BB): $2.36 (118 bb)
UTG: $4.50 (225 bb)
MP: $3.76 (188 bb)
CO: $1.22 (61 bb)
BTN: $3.59 (179.5 bb)
SB: $1.94 (97 bb)

SB posts $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02, CO posts $0.03

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.06) Hero has 2♠: A♥: J♦: K♠:
UTG calls $0.02, MP calls $0.02, CO checks, BTN calls $0.02, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks
Hero has nice hand but I decided not to raise from BB against 5. Villains VPIP 66-91%

Flop: ($0.13, 6 players) T♠: 9♣: 6♦:
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $0.10, fold, CO calls $0.10, BTN calls $0.10, fold, Hero calls $0.10
Flop not ideal. UTG pots and only MP fold. UTG probably flopped 2 pairs, set or straight and others can have anything. Hitting nut straight on turn may provide to big catch so I called.

Turn: ($0.53, 4 players) Q♦:
Nice turn for Hero. Any straights, 2 pairs, sets or draws will never fold so I donked.
Hero bets $0.51, UTG raises to $2.04, CO calls $1.09 and is all-in, fold, Hero raises to $2.24 and is all-in, UTG calls $0.20

River: ($6.10, 3 players) A♣:

Results: $6.10 pot ($0.20 rake)
Final Board: T♠: 9♣: 6♦: Q♦: A♣:

Hero shows 2♠: A♥: J♦: K♠:: (Straight, Ace High)
Main Pot: [$3.82]: (Pre 34%, Flop 15%, Turn 78%)
Side Pot: [$2.28]: (Pre 52%, Flop 19%, Turn 100%)

UTG shows 8♣: 5♠: 7♣: A♦:: (Straight, Ten High)
Main Pot: [$3.82]: (Pre 34%, Flop 52%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot: [$2.28]: (Pre 49%, Flop 81%, Turn 0%)

CO shows Q♣: 9♦: T♥: 6♠:: (Two Pair, Queens and Tens)
Main Pot: [$3.82]: (Pre 31%, Flop 33%, Turn 22%)

Hero wins $5.90

Originally posted by SDK1987

Originally posted by ghaleon
Well not squeezing with AKK7ds from SB was nice from that fellow
I guess so. If he would do that he would most likely won the hand right away or the BB is a bigger PLO fish than me:f_rolleyes:

Hero would need to call that squeeze anyway with perfect rundown that is not that often dominated.

In AKJ2 hand I like preflop check. It's bit weak with that 2 and not having A high suit. Our raise range in these spots should be very tight as there will likely be 2+ callers and our position suck.

Flop we actually get pretty nice pot odds with all those calls. Need some implieds but we also have bdfd. Would of course be better if we had that with nut suit. Good flop call.

Turn indeed nice lead and we also have redraw to higher straight.

If I were in UTG shoes (after misclicking preflop) I would be folding that T high straight all day long. Luckily this guy didn't

If I were in UTG shoes (after misclicking preflop) I would be folding that T high straight all day long. Luckily this guy didn't

Because this is PLO2, 3 connectors + A wo suit is nuts for VPIP 91 player If CO (VPIP 86 PFR 6 postflop agg 0,6) was more aggressive player he could 3bet on flop with 3 pairs (had 33%) and I would fold.

Yesterday morning before starting to play I watched again Kyyperi's PLO video from 240823. First time I watched it in pieces without listening carefully enough. Yesterday when I watched it again and repeated some interesting spots. Biggest learning was that I have been folding or calling too much instead calling or raising. Thanks to that my yesterdays short sessions and todays first were quite succesfull with minimal non-SD losses.

Month is coming to end. Time to start to think about game plan for October. In September I have played mainly in normal PLO2. Some times added one table fast PLO2 when not enough tables to sit in more than 2 normal tables. I have tried also some rounds in PLO5 normal and fast and normal PLO10. Action level in normal PLO5 feels same grazy as in PLO2. In in fast PLO5 and normal PLO10 players seem to be little bit more better and flops are often HU. Propably rest of month I will mainly play PLO2 normal and fast and try some times both type PLO5 and normal PLO10.

Options for October 2023:

1. Continue mainly PLO2 and some times PLO5 and 10 and try collect bankroll without depositing for PLO5
2. Deposit for PLO5 and play mainly it
3. Propably will join one GGpoker skin which is not PS-partner
4. Try sometimes Finnish Veikkaus poker where micro PLO tables are even more grazy than in other sites

I could also deposit without problems bankroll for PLO10 but with my current skill-level I'm not mentally ready to lose 10$ in one hand and 100$ in minutes:f_cry:

Funny hand against maniac. Maniac limp from UTG, Hero raise, maniac 3bet and I call. Maniac pots flop and turn and Hero calls. Unfortunately I had only 102BB stack:f_cool:

Hand from fast PLO5. CO is a fishy maniac, BTN is a solid player

Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

BTN: $5.00 (100 bb)
SB: $10.92 (218.4 bb)
BB: $5.91 (118.2 bb)
Hero (UTG): $5.00 (100 bb)
CO: $1.51 (30.2 bb)
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has T♥: J♣: 9♠: 8♦:
Hero raises to $0.17, CO calls $0.17, BTN raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.58, CO calls $0.58

Flop: ($2.32, 3 players) 6♠: J♠: T♣:
Hero checks, CO bets $0.76 and is all-in, BTN raises to $4.25 and is all-in, Hero ??

Open fold pre with rainbow version. Once facing squeeze I suppose it's call. Flop we need to stack off. BU can be pretty wide here hoping to iso versus shortie.

Always wondering if they know the rules when people get crazy with those trip hands (e.g. that KKKQ).