Merge bet river

I would just cbet the flop. You said you would have to check flushing turns, why is that?

You also said that you get more value with c-raise. If BU checks back, you will miss value. BU shouldn't be betting a lot there without a hand, and if he has a hand you get value by betting too. And he has a loads of hands that he will call but wouldn't bet himself.

As played I would check-call river. If you bet, it's hard to get calls from weaker hands. To valuebet, we need to beat over 50% of his CALLING range. He shouldn't have a straight after turn check, and KK would often shove flop. He will have some missed bluffs, although you block them. But still he has them.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
I would just cbet the flop. You said you would have to check flushing turns, why is that?

Because I dominate/block a lot of the board. I think I will have a hard time trying to get value for my flush when I block 2PR, straight draws. I feel like double barreling on flush turns, with this hands, I will get generate tons of folds, so I would rather check to induce a bluff, which is unlikely, or x-r a weaker flush.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
You also said that you get more value with c-raise. If BU checks back, you will miss value. BU shouldn't be betting a lot there without a hand, and if he has a hand you get value by betting too. And he has a loads of hands that he will call but wouldn't bet himself.

That makes a lot of sense.

Originally posted by Kyyberi

As played I would check-call river. If you bet, it's hard to get calls from weaker hands. To valuebet, we need to beat over 50% of his CALLING range. He shouldn't have a straight after turn check, and KK would often shove flop. He will have some missed bluffs, although you block them. But still he has them.

Interesting. But I could also fold out better 2PR like AT,A2 even AK. I don't like x-c the river, I think their betting would be too value heavy. Especially with blocking 2 diamonds.

We should cbet the flop because we have the range advantage here. Our cbet oop is on the high end as the pfa on this heavy texture. Yes 3way we also would check-raise occasionally vs an IP stab but the value part includes no more top-bottom 2pair (+fd) hands. It´s a little too weak to check-raise and it´s also perfectly fine and strong enough to check-call, both otf and ott (when flop gets checked through we must start aggression ott though).

For the turn blocking the pair stuff is true but we get value from other flushes, blocking sets is also reverse blocking flushes^^ so with the nutflush we could bet anyways. I would not do a lot of inducing, trap checking in general, especially 3way. I think heads-up against someone with history it´s a fine option though. But remember, our betting freq remains high having bet the flop on turn flushing shifts oop. In a check-call flop I don´t like donking too much in a generic spot, we have other worse hands for that but you can do it as an exploit to generate value vs passive/weak players where 3-bets with the nutflush get paid by worse.

For river play I agree with Kyyberi to check-call with the blocker.

Originally posted by Mascherano95
Yes 3way we also would check-raise occasionally vs an IP stab but the value part includes no more top-bottom 2pair (+fd) hands. It´s a little too weak to check-raise and it´s also perfectly fine and strong enough to check-call, both otf and ott (when flop gets checked through we must start aggression ott though).

That's very surprising to me. I thought NFDs OOP mix between calling and raising. And so I assumed that NFDs with additional equity are raises. So NFD + TP leans raise and so NFD + 2PR is a clear raise. Maybe that's just for HU? Or am I wrong about that too?

There are also very different situations with 2p+fd. E.g. on J74ss if we have hand like AKJ4+nfd we have way stronger hand overall than in this spot. E.g. we have way more chances to improve versus hand like JT97 compared versus AQ in this one. Also mid/low flop like that is way worse for our range so we should be naturally checking a lot.

Originally posted by BunBun00

Originally posted by Mascherano95
...

And so I assumed that NFDs with additional equity are raises. So NFD + TP leans raise and so NFD + 2PR is a clear raise. Maybe that's just for HU? Or am I wrong about that too?

No not HU, I referred to 3way oop only.

->

Originally posted by ghaleon
There are also very different situations with 2p+fd. E.g. on J74ss if we have hand like AKJ4+nfd we have way stronger hand overall than in this spot. E.g. we have way more chances to improve versus hand like JT97 compared versus AQ in this one. Also mid/low flop like that is way worse for our range so we should be naturally checking a lot.

+1

E.g. spot like this. We open EP, BU call, flop come J75ss. Trainer wise we check 85%, BU stabs around 50% and our response with 2P+fd is:

If we have back up in form of overcards, bdfd or straightdraw we will be x-r more. Hmm actually having sd moves it more into calling. Probably because of blocking opponent continuation range and making call range more competitive.

At low stakes PLO100 Plo-vision continues much tighter.

I filtered for two pair + fd combos which obviously wont fold.

Originally posted by ghaleon
I filtered for two pair + fd combos which obviously wont fold.

so the plo-trainer frequency graph alters according to your filter

Originally posted by ghaleon
E.g. spot like this. We open EP, BU call, flop come J75ss. Trainer wise we check 85%, BU stabs around 50% and our response with 2P+fd is:

Here you filtered for 2PR +FD. I was talking specifically about NFDs, 2PR+NFDs. And if my limited PLO knowledge says NFD+2PR should raise like 75%.

Originally posted by Mascherano95

Originally posted by ghaleon
I filtered for two pair + fd combos which obviously wont fold.

so the plo-trainer frequency graph alters according to your filter

Ah you meant that. Trainer uses half pot for BU stab being in position.

For 2P+NFD on that flop it's 57%. But yeah I don't know like AVG frequency over lot of flops. If we go to some KQ8ss type flop then that category would almost never raise. Depends heavily on how good flop is for villain betting.