[Closed] AQ bb vs Sb nl200

9% 4b means he 4bets 9% of the time that he was 3bet.
Its not the same as a 9% preflop range.

So, take his pf opening range 22%. He folds 75% of that range to 3b so he calls or 4bet 25% so, he continues with 25% of 22% = 5.5%.

As an approximation, he 4bs 9% of 22% = 2% ie. AA, KK, QQ, AKs.

I think I prefer to just flat here pre, especially if he has high steal % from SB. That way we keep in all his worse hands. We have position also. When we get 4b we have a tough decision and we are never happy when we get it in pre. (Do you think he ever goes broke pre with AJ?)

Thanks Tim,nice explanation. I wanted to keep an aggro image and i 3betted him with junk so i wanted to balance ( this beeing the bottom of my range obv) and i thought he is capable of 4 betting light ...seems he isn't.

"As an approximation, he 4bs 9% of 22% = 2% ie. AA, KK, QQ, AKs."

When u put it like that i'm screwed

Please if you could answer a question that is not related to the hand.
I started 3betting a lot latelly and when a reg that plays 22/19 with 80% fold to 3bet just calls my 3bet and a Q hits the flop i'm not c.betting that board unless i have a strong hand. Should i balance the checks when i DO have a strong hand?

I dont play nl200... but I would say that if he folds to 3b 80% of the time, and if he 4bs quite often when he doesnt fold... then the situation wont arise often enough for you to worry about balancing.

You are looking at top 4% of hands (maybe he even 4bets some hands, so could be even stronger) so I would save your $ if you have air, since he probably didnt call with the intention of folding on the flop very often.

if he starts to call ur 3bs more often, then ofc you will need to start cbetting and/or adjusting by 3betting tighter if you are 3betting a lot of junk hands.

one more question regarding ranges , If i raise from the CO with 99 and from button an aggro player with 9%overall 3bet and 13% from the bu is 3 betting me (700hands sample size) is it profitable 4bet/call?

I think it probably is, but the problem is that you can't just take his 3b % (BU or whereever) and from that number, work out the range you can 4b call. The reason for this is that you don't know (just from his 3b%) what his 5b shoving % is. Some people 3b very lightly but only go broke with a very strong range (e.g. AK/QQ+).

Let's say he only 5b shoves AA/KK (1%). That means he folds to your 4b 12 times out of 13. So, suppose you raised to $3 and he 3b to $10 and you 4b to $25.

So in 12 cases you will win $10+$3+1.50 = $174
and in 1 case you will lose 0.82* $97 = $79

So, of course you could profitably 4b/call. But in fact it would be even more profitable to 4b/fold since you know he always has AA/KK when he 5bs.

I don't know the exact maths but I think that against a person with a 13% range who plays in such a way as not to be exploitable (i.e. he 5bs a non-premium range), 99 should be fine to 4b/call.
Maybe the judge can confirm?

I guess in regards to the hand there are no more questions?
As Tim said once he 4bets you have to fold given his stats.
Since he folds to 3bets that much, flatting his openraise is definitely an option.

Originally posted by eszibit
Please if you could answer a question that is not related to the hand.
I started 3betting a lot latelly and when a reg that plays 22/19 with 80% fold to 3bet just calls my 3bet and a Q hits the flop i'm not c.betting that board unless i have a strong hand. Should i balance the checks when i DO have a strong hand?

Imo you don't have to balance the checks as long as he doesn't adapt by calling more 3bets and then bet the turn once you checked back.
The reason is, that as you say he has a hand almost always, so the times you're ahead of his range you can bet for value and the times you have air you can't bluff because it's -EV.
As long as he doesn't change this scenario by adapting, there's no reason for you to do so either - after all bluff3betting him is profitable preflop and the times you get to valuebet him postflop are profitable, too.

Originally posted by eszibit
one more question regarding ranges , If i raise from the CO with 99 and from button an aggro player with 9%overall 3bet and 13% from the bu is 3 betting me (700hands sample size) is it profitable 4bet/call?

It depends on what you assume about his shovingrange, but in general when someone 3bets 11%+ it's profitable to 4bet/call 99-JJ, but again this is just a rule of thumb.
As Tim said if he only shoves with QQ+ or KK+ it would be even more profitable to 4bet/fold - but in reality almost everyone gets it in with AK, QQ+ so the really important question is, whether he gets it in with JJ and TT - those are the only hands that can decrease your equity in the pot drastically.

eszibit - did you read this discussion? nl100 A3s bluff 5bet shove
It exactly discusses many of your questions/concerns.

I think it is worth mentioning one more important comment:

His overall 4bet % as nicely calculated by Tim, should be slightly adjusted for this blind wars or BTN vs blinds wars, as people play much more loose and aggressive these spots.

Can I actually have one important question related to this stat:

1) Does his 4bet stat also include situations where he just "had opportunity to 4bet, but he just folded pre without any action" (i.e. UTG opens, MP2 3bets and Villain from BU folds).

2) Or does this stat only include hands where he open raised himself (or called open raise and got 3betted) - i.e. scenario as mentioned in this hand.

In case it is calculated like in 1, you have to MASSIVELY adjust the % from the stats to this situation.

***
Even if it is calculated like in 2) you still should adjust his 2% 4bet percentage AT LEAST to 6% in blind wars situation. I think he may be shoving ATs+, 88+ or even some bluffs. Generally in blind wars, 5bet shoving AQ vs SB with who you have aggressive history is not a mistake.

Originally posted by jekyll001
Can I actually have one important question related to this stat:

1) Does his 4bet stat also include situations where he just "had opportunity to 4bet, but he just folded pre without any action" (i.e. UTG opens, MP2 3bets and Villain from BU folds).

2) Or does this stat only include hands where he open raised himself (or called open raise and got 3betted) - i.e. scenario as mentioned in this hand.

Erm, I have no idea o_O.
But I'd be glad to hear which one it is if anyone knows.

tried to search in help of PT3 and support forums. Only found this discussion below. It looks like that it only counts situations where you opened yourself? (Which makes sense)...

Re: 4bet range
by black winter day » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:55 pm

4bet range is calculated by: Total PFR divided by Total 4bet %. The thing to keep in mind is

that most 4bet situations will involve later positions and PFR and 4bet % will be higher from

late position than the overall PFR and 4bet would be. As 4bet by position isn’t currently being

compiled it would take a major overhaul to have it calculated the latter way but it will be

introduced in the future.
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So, it's 14*4%=14*4/100=0.563black winter day

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Re: 4bet range
by kraada » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:59 am

PFR, in PT3 is defined as a percentage: the count of hands you raised preflop divided by the number of hands you had multiplied by 100 to make it a percentage. If HM doesn't do this, that accounts for the discrepancy.

I was assuming PFR was defined the same:
100 * (cnt_pfr / cnt_hands )

And 4-bet was defined the same:
100 * (cnt_p_4bet / cnt_p_3bet_def_opp)

Then if you put one over the other the 100s cancel.

That said all you have to change in the original definition is to multiply the numerator by 100 and the numbers will line up.kraada
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Re: 4bet range
by stevi3p » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:17 am

The idea is that it's roughly the % of our total range. So we are 4betting 4% of the time out of our 14% PFR, so we are 4betting 4%*14%=0.56% of our total range. I'm sure this is how HEM does it.

14/4 means absolutely nothing so far as I can tell

thanks jekyll ,read that thread but can't really say it helped me ..too much math and too many assumptions.The thing is ,when i saw that a top pro (0human0) did a couple of nl200 videos and said that you have to be more aggresive and AQ should be a standard 3bet/shove in blind wars then i tend to believe him. That would be a rule of thumb, but i guess if u have enough hands with someone ..1K+ and you see a very small 4bet it's ok to lay iti down .

I would say if he has steal stat more than 40 and 4bet stat more than 10%, you can 3bet / shove.

If he has 4bet below 10% I just 3bet/fold or just flat call pre (it is not bad option either).