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[Closed] NL100 KK oop vs good reg

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Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $1(BB) Replayer
SB ($183)
BB ($65.70)
Hero ($128)
UTG+1 ($139)
CO ($141)
BTN ($199)

Dealt to Hero K♦ K♠

Hero raises to $3, fold, fold, BTN calls $3, fold, fold

FLOP ($7.50) 9♣ 5♥ Q♥

Hero bets $4, BTN calls $4

TURN ($15.50) 9♣ 5♥ Q♥ 9♦

Hero checks, BTN bets $10, Hero calls $10

RIVER ($35.50) 9♣ 5♥ Q♥ 9♦ 5♦

Hero checks, BTN bets $22, Hero calls $22

villain 31/26/3, 119 hs. Villain is same PS.com coach as prev hand.
No reads on villain. So far only showed the goods.

Should we bet/f turn in preference?

If we ch/c T what do we do on this river? Can we assume to be ahead enough to ch/c 2/3p again? I thought villain could easily have fd or AQ here, but not sure if he bets AQ on river?

thanks


3 replies

i'd prefer b/f turn. there are many draws out there on the flop. because of this i don't think he doesn't have a really good hand on the flop when he c/c, so he mostly hast a FD, Qx or OESD or 9x. i think when we bet the turn we get calls from
all the weaker hands and raises from stronger hands (9x), as he wants to protect here. on the river we can c/c then to induce bluffs from busted draws or let him valuebet Qx.
as played its a guessing game. i'd probably call because of
- the busted draws
- he might be valuebetting Qx
- i guess he'd raise every strong hand except 55 on the turn (for example 9x)


Purity
Joined: 28.01.2008

Well the standard approach would be to go for a bet/fold line.

However against a good regular you should be aware of the fact there can be a good amount of floats in his range even with very weak holdings and therefore if u suspect villain to be floating alot you should definitely check the turn with your good hands aswel.
=> If you always end up check/folding when you check the turn after c-betting flop you will become very easy to play against if opponents are ''good'' and they will try to float you non-stop.
=> So basically you need to balance your turn checking range. Obviously this is not nessecary yet on NL100 but maybe in this situation where u know villain is good player u should definitely mix up your turn checking range.

So there is absolutely not a single thing wrong with checking the turn: Because we ( and if not, you should be ) are 90% certain villain is almost always betting turn if we check.
The obvious argument for ''protecting on drawy board'' doesn't nesecarly mean you should auto-bet like and don't consider other options.

I like check/calling instead of check/raising because we are playing from UTG and after we would check/raise the turn our hand becomes almost face up to a decent player and we kinda isolate ourselves against only better hands because good player is capable of folding Qx against our weird line combined with the fact we are UTG.

So after we check/call the turn our hand is basically disguised. He will never put us on Qx or overpair after we check/call turn and probably puts us on a weakly played JJ/TT.

On the river every single draw missed + Qx can easily value-bet against our weak check/calling-turn range.
=> Now the only question is : Do we check/call river or do we check/raise and fold to possible shove.
=> You can't ever fold the river here. If you even consider folding river then you should ask yourself why you check/called the turn in the first place.

If you are questioning if villain would bet AQ on the river then u are confusing a good regular with a retard passive fish who doesn't know when he's ahead.
=> Ofcourse villain will value-bet AQ ! and he should value-bet any Qx.

I personally am very tempted to check/raise the river and expect to get called alot by Qx. Just because our line looks like complete shit : Cbet flop, check/call turn and check/raise river after every draw missed.
=> Villain will have hard time folding his Qx hand: He knows he shouldn't call but can't stop himself for calling just because our line looks like complete retarded :). But that's just me.

On the other hand against a good regular who I know will be sitting at my tables alot in the future I would check/call river.
=> I want to know his holding. I want to know with what hands he would float, I want to know what hands he's calling pre-flop against my UTG, If for example he ends up having a 9x hand that's great intel we can use in the future.

Against your standard NL100 players your best option is to bet/fold the turn 100% of the time but against good players you can't do that anymore.

Oh yes and btw, villain is never bluffing w a missed draw on the river ( if he is good player ! ) because this is the worst possible board to bluff on and he knows we might herocall river ( also reasons for him to value-bet any Qx ).


Bierbaer
Joined: 27.05.2005

Originally posted by Purity
Well the standard approach would be to go for a bet/fold line.

However against a good regular you should be aware of the fact there can be a good amount of floats in his range even with very weak holdings and therefore if u suspect villain to be floating alot you should definitely check the turn with your good hands aswel.
=> If you always end up check/folding when you check the turn after c-betting flop you will become very easy to play against if opponents are ''good'' and they will try to float you non-stop.
=> So basically you need to balance your turn checking range. Obviously this is not nessecary yet on NL100 but maybe in this situation where u know villain is good player u should definitely mix up your turn checking range.

So there is absolutely not a single thing wrong with checking the turn: Because we ( and if not, you should be ) are 90% certain villain is almost always betting turn if we check.
The obvious argument for ''protecting on drawy board'' doesn't nesecarly mean you should auto-bet like and don't consider other options.

I like check/calling instead of check/raising because we are playing from UTG and after we would check/raise the turn our hand becomes almost face up to a decent player and we kinda isolate ourselves against only better hands because good player is capable of folding Qx against our weird line combined with the fact we are UTG.

So after we check/call the turn our hand is basically disguised. He will never put us on Qx or overpair after we check/call turn and probably puts us on a weakly played JJ/TT.

On the river every single draw missed + Qx can easily value-bet against our weak check/calling-turn range.
=> Now the only question is : Do we check/call river or do we check/raise and fold to possible shove.
=> You can't ever fold the river here. If you even consider folding river then you should ask yourself why you check/called the turn in the first place.

If you are questioning if villain would bet AQ on the river then u are confusing a good regular with a retard passive fish who doesn't know when he's ahead.
=> Ofcourse villain will value-bet AQ ! and he should value-bet any Qx.

I personally am very tempted to check/raise the river and expect to get called alot by Qx. Just because our line looks like complete shit : Cbet flop, check/call turn and check/raise river after every draw missed.
=> Villain will have hard time folding his Qx hand: He knows he shouldn't call but can't stop himself for calling just because our line looks like complete retarded :). But that's just me.

On the other hand against a good regular who I know will be sitting at my tables alot in the future I would check/call river.
=> I want to know his holding. I want to know with what hands he would float, I want to know what hands he's calling pre-flop against my UTG, If for example he ends up having a 9x hand that's great intel we can use in the future.

Against your standard NL100 players your best option is to bet/fold the turn 100% of the time but against good players you can't do that anymore.

Oh yes and btw, villain is never bluffing w a missed draw on the river ( if he is good player ! ) because this is the worst possible board to bluff on and he knows we might herocall river ( also reasons for him to value-bet any Qx ).

Vn1!! There's nothing I can possibly add to this except that you should make it $6 on the flop.

I also prefer c/c turn for the reasons purity stated.
On the river a c/r is a thin play, he can have quite some 9x like 97s, 98s, T9s, J9s and even Q9s+.
There are also AQ, KQ and QJs of course, but while he always calls 9x he sometimes folds the Qx. So IMO the c/r is too thin, I'd just c/c.


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