[Closed] NL Basic Short Stack Strategy by Leo258

Heya Velak,

Man what an irritating problem!

Np on the long post, it makes a bit more sense to me now, as I was just trying to help and thought you might've just misunderstood or something. Maybe one of the admins has an idea on how to handle this issue...

Anyway, nice to see you're going to try and see the coaching. Even without the software it is even possible to join the coaching, as I always try to mention what is happening in as much detail as possible. Though it might not be as interesting or as easy to learn stuff from it as it would normally be...

Leo

Aye, it's fine. Hopefully the skills and knowledge I gain will more than compensate for losing a opportunity to obtain the bonus.

I'm looking forward to it.

Also with stars, I had even tried sending them a cashier's check (which I still have) but... when I went to send it to them via courier (as they asked) it turns out that it's over $90 to send it to them, because they're on some island which is apparently guarded by Dr. Evil and Mini-me, so the couriers are expensive.

It didn't make sense to me to spend nearly $100 to get a $100 bonus. heh. Anyway, in the end, everything is working smoothly with Stars, but it would have taken all of maybe ONE day if PokerStars would step into the 21st century along with the rest of us and just spend the 10 minutes a retarded system admin would need to set up a PGP key for PokerStars Security.

Instead it took over a month. It wasn't a major problem, since I was playing with money from PokerStrategy, anyway. So I didn't NEED money in a hurry or anything, I was just wanting it for the bonus.

But, now it's all done, I just don't want to go through ANY of that again with another site which is even less U.S. Citizen friendly, and which has worse support.

Edit: fixed typos.

Heya,

First off, great stuff you all wore your orange hats!

This week I've introduced learning goals for you and I would really love for you to get going with this and let me know how that turned out next week.
The goals are;

Learning SSS up until NL25
beating the limits as fast as possible

NL10:

• BRM
  
• SHC
  
• Stack: Raise size (raise behind)
  
• Train your discipline, follow the rules
  
• Understanding why sticking to the theory is best
  
• Create a blog – Make a studyplan/arrange your playing times
  
• Post hands (as many as you can)


NL25:

• Equity
  
• Odds
  
• (Hidden) Outs
  
• Potodds
  
• Implied odds
  
• Discounted odds
  
• How to play in a freeplay situation, considering potbuilding and pot control.
  
• calling pocket pairs
  
• Table-selection

In general:

• Never get too much learning material, as learning some things really good always beats learing a little bit of everything.
  
• Start out with 2 tables and never play more then 6 (unless you need to quickly get a bonus or something)
  
• Talk about why you play a hand the way you do, or at least ask why you should play a hand as someone has advised.
  
• Follow Basic SSS coachings!!! =))

If you have any questions about this, please feel free to ask them next week.

Also, we introduced a Bronze SSS-Chart, which is really handy for looking at how to play pre/post flop... This can be found in next week's coaching-chan again

There were many questions about how to play when you doubled your stack. The best awnser to this is, that you should play the way you feel comfortable.
I would recommend seeing all the free cards (until you need to play the blinds), and only playing AA/KK. If you feel comfortable playing other hands too, play these as well. If losing your 40BB+ with this makes you tilt, you obviously don't feel comfortable with this ♦
If you don't like even waiting for the blinds, because you don't trust yourself, just leave straight away

An interesting hand for that, was this one;

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
7 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($9.74)
BTN ($18.17)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 7 players) Hero is UTG K♠ K♣
Hero raises to $1, 3 folds, BTN calls $1, 2 folds

Flop: T♦ Q♣ 2♠ ($2.35, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.80, BTN calls $1.80

Turn: 3♣ ($5.95, 2 players)
Hero bets $3, 1 fold

Final Pot: $8.95

Hero wins $8.66 ( won +$2.86 )
BTN lost -$2.80

We choose to play our KK, eventhough we have just doubled up. On the flop we have an overpair and a very strong hand. Because we want to protect against draws we bet again, resulting in us winning the hand \o/ \o/

Another interesting hand, was the one when hitting the draw

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($8.80)
MP3 ($25.15)
CO ($10.12)
Hero ($3.25)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 9 players) Hero is BB 8♥ 7♣
UTG calls $0.25, 3 folds, MP3 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: 6♥ 5♦ J♥ ($1.10, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: 2♣ ($2.10, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25

River: 4♠ ($3.10, 4 players)
Hero goes all-in $2.50, 3 folds

Final Pot: $5.60

Hero wins $5.45 ( won +$2.20 )
MP3 lost -$0.75
UTG lost -$0.75
CO lost -$0.75

As the article on draws in a free play situation tells us, we can best check/call here because we dont have a monster draw... We get great odds for calling every time. As our stack is only about potsize, we push it all in on the river, as we've hit our draw. Unfortunately no-one called.

Thanks for being there again this week guys,

Please leave your feedback, and hope to see you next week!

Leo

I missed the coaching today (stuck working saturday). Is there anywhere that I can download the new Bronze SSS-Chart from? I've been looking forward to seeing it all week, was hoping it would be posted in this thread.

I'm sorry I couldn't attend the coaching session this week, RL obligations... I also had a bit less time to play so not much happened on my front. I guess I should start my own blog... Would be interesting to follow my progress specially if I tied myself to doing it regularly. Motivate me Leo, motivation is key ♦

On play after double up... I'll even play QQ, tried JJ as well but folded it after a reraise. Apart from that I try to complete any decent hands in SB (ATs, KQos, KJs, QJs,) if there are 2 other limpers before me and I always fold to any further action from the BB. Also I try limp my pocket pairs, folding them as soon as the action gets too hot. I worked up some averages for the pockets I've played preflop so far and usually I'm at about 1BB invest to 3,54BB in the pot in preflop. Not great, but I managed to take down some pretty great pots for any SSS player by making my hands on the flop or with free cards so I'm deffo in the green so far.

Blind stealing I try maybe one in 20 opportunities on NL10 with SSS, but with similar hands I've mentioned before (ATs, KQos, KJs, QJs) being minimum and pocket pairs (except 22 and 33), obviously folding to any further action. My results after about 6k hands say I'm at 2BB/100h and adding another 10$ of bonus... I'd like to do better but there's no real reason to complain

I have to add I also play SSS on NL100 on another platform, but I'm not doing so well there (about 20BB down after some 3k hands, not a huge statistic but hey...), but I did suffer some nasty suck outs there so meh... here's to things going better there

What I would like to know however is, would it be possible to get the elephant license before I reach my 2k PS points? My PT DB is huge as it is and it takes a while to load it up, also I'd like to keep it separate from my hands I've played after visiting the PS. Want to draw up some comparisons with it... anyways I'd really like an answer if there is any possibility of this.

Hope I make it to next Saturday's coaching, I'll deffo be looking up on this topic tho

GL at the tables and iRL to everyone

Hey guys,

tonight is another coaching at 20.30 server time (or 19.30GMT).

@kolt45, maybe you can find the time to join the coaching this week? If not, just give a shout

@Atoks, sure thing, motivation is the key. But as a normal coach of a football team for example would motivate you into becoming better, the biggest part has to come from yourself. During my coaching an in this coaching forum I will try to do my best

Nice to see you're in the green so far, that's a good start. Now if you find your leaks and try to filter them out, I think you might improve your winning a whole lot. 2BB/100 is definitely good, as you are beating your limit
Always try to improve however, for the next limit will be tougher.
Sometimes, in stead of trying a shot at a higher limit, it really works to go down one, in regards to your NL100... Ive also done this several times, as Ive created a personal learning plan for any given limit. Going back a limit (or maybe even 2), ensures that you go back a few steps in your learning plan too, reviewing and then removing any possible leaks in this aspect. Although it might not be the fastest way of improving your BR at that point, on the long run it gives you a huge amount of thorough knowledge, which has many positives sides to it

Regarding Elephant, im not sure, its better if you ask these questions in this thread

Hope to see you all tonight !

Leo

Hi Leo258,
I like your SSS chart very much,actually I did the same myself,but how many outs we need to discount in FD situations was new to me.Ty.
You remove 5/10 rule from plan,I read about it,but still haven`t internalized.
Looking forward to meet you again

Hi Leo258,
Missed your coaching unfortunately. Can you send me the new SSS chart?
Hope to make it next week. Is the coaching usually weekends?

Hi dear coaching friends,

We had many, many interesting questions, of which I will review a couple. If you don't feel like reading the entire post, do read the last paragraph, as it contains very important information on improving your game!
Also, I want to offer you the opportunity to post any hands or questions in this thread. I will handle these post in great detail in next weeks coaching.

Due to personal issues, as Tribun puts it, we had our coaching last Friday, in stead of yesterday.
Luckily, there wasn't any need for hospitalization or anything, so next week the coaching will be held on Saturday again.

So here are this weeks most interesting questions:

1. How should I play AK (pre- and post-flop)?
   Well, surely AK is sometimes a very difficult hand to play. Nevertheless it is a very strong one. Therefore I would recommend playing it just like the short stack strategy advices us.
   Pre-flop this means you should always raise/re-raise/push. Post-flop we play it standard; c-betting when we've got a monster draw, when we've hit, when we're heads-up or when our stack is smaller than half pot size. We check/fold post flop if we're up against more then one player. On draws we play according to odds and outs, as seen in the chart offered in the coaching channel.
   Last but not least, we can always adapt our play if we have good reads. If you as a beginner (<NL50) want to change your play, you should only do this to play tighter(!), not looser.
   An example would be a good PokerStrategy raising from UTG. Re-raising AKo here wouldn't be recommended, as his range will be AK, JJ+, against which we're behind. People calling the raise would however make it more profitable for us to push here nonetheless.
2. Would you recommend a beginner to always re-raise JJ versus an UTG raiser?
   Yes I would! Also see my previous answer here. JJ is a very strong hand and although it's behind against a range of AK, JJ+, we can't assume that on NL10/NL25 people wouldn't raise many worse hands. Therefore re-raising/pushing is almost always the best play here. Even more so when we have callers in front of us.
   The only situation in which we shouldn't re-raise here, is when we have a good read on the UTG raiser and there aren't any callers.
   Questioning a strategy is a very good thing to do, as it is nonsense to just act like a robot and not understand why you should do certain things. An interesting post on that can be found here and here.
3. I've received my $50,- starting capital on Full Tilt Poker. BRM tells me I should start on NL10. Now I've heard NL10 isn't beatable because of the 10% rake. What should I do?!?
   It is true that FTP does have more rake on NL10. We do, however get 27% rake back, which makes it a bit better. The main thing is, that as a beginner, the worst opponent you have, is you. Not the rake, not the other 8 guys sitting at that table or the suckouts. When you learn to perfectly play SSS and are able to keep it tight and make good reads, you will beat this limit.
   The big advantage is that when you beat this limit, you will be that good with your SSS-ing, that you have a serious edge on NL25.
   Moving outside BRM, going up to NL25, is obviously not an option.

If you feel I've left anything out, please feel free to leave a question here.

This weeks most interesting hands:

• $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
  10 players
  Converted at weaktight.com

  Stacks:
  Hero ($5.34)
  SB ($15.05)

  Pre-flop: ($0.35, 10 players) Hero is BTN Q♣ Q♥
  3 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, SB raises to $2.25, 1 fold, MP1 folds, Hero goes all-in $4.09, SB calls $3.09

  Flop: 7♥ J♦ 6♦ ($11.18, 2 players)

  Turn: T♥ ($11.18, 2 players)

  River: 4♠ ($11.18, 2 players)

  Final Pot: $11.18
  Hero shows: Q♣ Q♥
  SB shows: A♦ Q♠

  We get a mini raise. Therefore we have to look at our stack:stack size ratio. When doing this, we always need to look at the total remaining stack, not the amount we should call for. So the stack:raise size ratio is 4.09:1.25, which is about 3:1. With this ratio we should go all-in with AA-TT, AQ+.

• $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
  8 players
  Converted at weaktight.com

  Stacks:
  MP1 ($30.88)
  Hero ($4.25)
  SB ($15.97)

  Pre-flop: ($0.35, 8 players) Hero is BTN K♠ K♥
  2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, SB calls $1.15, 1 fold, MP1 folds

  Flop: 9♠ A♥ 9♥ ($3, 2 players)
  SB bets $1, Hero folds

  Final Pot: $4

  Hard fold? YEAH! But the problem is, we see players like this calling with Ax hands pre-flop very often. Although we have a monster pre-flop, with such a flop we have total trash. A fold is therefore best here.
  Remember, hands that were good pre-flop can be really bad post-flop. Playing it like a monster will cost you a lot of money. Everyone is of course curious with what kind of hand he would be doing this. Curiosity isn't a good enough reason for losing money though

• $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
  8 players
  Converted at weaktight.com

  Stacks:
  UTG ($4.80)
  Hero ($4.20)
  CO ($16.55)
  SB ($18.79)

  Pre-flop: ($0.35, 8 players) Hero is UTG+1 K♦ A♦
  UTG calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, CO calls $1.25, 1 fold, SB calls $1.15, 1 fold, UTG folds

  Flop: Q♦ J♣ 2♦ ($4.25, 3 players)
  SB checks, Hero goes all-in $2.95, 1 fold, SB calls $2.95

  Turn: 3♠ ($10.15, 2 players)

  River: J♥ ($10.15, 2 players)

  Final Pot: $10.15
  SB shows: T♣ K♣
  Hero shows: K♦ A♦

  Coming back to our AK question, here is the reason why (especially on lower limits) you should just play it like the strategy advices us. Of course we have a monster draw here because of our overcards, flush and straight draw, so we need to play it like a made hand. Even without that many outs we would c-bet here though.

So, another long review... If you made it all the way here, give yourself a little applause!

For next week I'm planning on giving you all personal assignments, which will give your basic SSS-game a vital boost. If you don't want to miss out on this, do join next Saturdays coaching!!

Hope to see you there,

Leo

Hi Leo,
I`m a bit unsure about first hand.Off course it`s a clear push but ratio should be 4.09:1.25 (your ,not opp`s 2.25 raise),so result 3.2:1.Am I right?
Thanx ,was nice coaching.

P.S. I think you did that mistake deliberately to see if we reading your posts carefully. ♦

Hey dallievas, well spotted!

And tbh, I didnt make the mistake on purpose

Good to see you've read it thoroughly... Have you applauded yourself as stated? ♦

Thanks,
Leo

Very nice review by the way.

Damnit I hope I can make next week... got a working saturday again Is it possible to get an assingment even if we can't make it to the coaching?

Great coaching Leo, it's been very helpful. Here's my blog:

The Chronicles Of Mint Jelly: A Chip, A Chair And A Mission

MJ

Call me Mint Jelly, 'cause I'm on the lam! -- Abe Simpson

Hey guys, tomorrow I'll review

Anyway, blogs + goals till 8/5 pls

Cheers,
Leo

Hi Leo, Thanks again for your coachings (yesterday and friday), unfortunately your luckbox didn't work. Maybe you should update it!

Maybe it is an idea to take in a second coach that plays and review his plays while the other coach answers the questions because I see sometimes you have to do 3 things at the same time. Male-wise, that is impossible.

Or maybe it is an idea to let a PS member play a SSS session live during the coaching on NL10/NL25 and review his play live with the other members.
Both suggestions are helpful for you because you do not have to do everything at the same time.

I am going to open my blog today so see me edited post soon
Cheers

[Edit]
My Blog , Click!

Tnx Gerv, I'll take that under consideration...

The Public Private Coaching is something PokerStrategy offers for BSS players, and might be something for SSS as well, if there's a lot of people who would like this, it might be something to take up with the Admins.

Ok so for the review;

This week we've talked about many different things the basic strategy offers, but also how we can expand our basic SSS a little bit. A little bit, because it is very important that you don't do too many expansions at the same time, as should should first and foremost have a solid understanding of the basic strategy. One thing that is essential to your SSS-play, is learning about odds, outs, discounted outs and pot-odds.

This is a part of poker which is regularly forgotten, since people tend to play on their "gut feeling" when they start playing poker. Mathematics is an essential part of becoming a winning player. Although this might not always seem interesting to you, it is vital to your play and should therefore always take a central roll in the process of making a decision. Especially when you are trying to improve your poker game, this should always be on your mind as it will then become your second nature sooner or later. The interesting thing about SSS is that many decisions are taken by a chart, so there's a far easier thought process then for example BSS. This enables you to properly thing about other things.

The bronze article "scripting", has a very interesting explanation on how you can easily change your thought process and make these decisions second nature. Although the process described there is very extensive, you should be able to get the general idea and maybe use some things you want to use in your SSS-script.

A question that got asked a lot, was if we can play lower pocket pairs in late position (22-77) and limp middle pocket pairs in early position (77-TT), since some players would consider this a nice addition on their standard play.

Limping in early position is never an option as SSSer, as there are just too many players left to act behind us. Furthermore, we are also likely to be out of position on the flop. In general we can say that you shouldn't expand your starting hands in early- or middle-position.

We can however have a look at the play in late position or in the small blind.
In these positions (CO/BTN/SB), a good addition to your standard SSS would be limping lower pocket pairs, but only when we have enough limpers in front of us. A safe and good rule of thumb is that we need at least 3 limpers. Three things are important here:
1. If you have a tendency to play these hands with less limpers, don't play these hands at all!
2. Post-flop we only bet when we make our set. So no set = no bet
3. Don't steal with these hands, unless you have proper reads and a lot of hands for stats. On NL10/NL25 you shouldn't yet steal!

If you are going to try this out, please post a link to your blog here, and post some hands there, as I am quite interested in the results.

To finish off the review, I would like to share some interesting hands we had during coaching. Please let me know how you would have played these, and obv. why:

1. $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
   9 players
   Converted at weaktight.com

   Stacks:
   UTG ($26.25)
   MP2 ($6.22)
   BTN ($49.60)
   Hero ($4.30)

   Pre-flop: ($0.35, 9 players) Hero is BB Q♠ A♠
   UTG raises to $0.50, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero says "wat"?!?

2. $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
   10 players
   Converted at weaktight.com

   Stacks:

   MP1 ($4.70)
   SB ($12.10)
   Hero ($5.00)

   Pre-flop: ($0.35, 10 players) Hero is BB J♦ A♥
   3 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 4 folds, SB calls $0.15, Hero raises to $1.25, MP1 goes all-in $4.45, SB folds, Hero says "wat?!?"

3. $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
   10 players
   Converted at weaktight.com

   Stacks:
   Hero ($3.60)
   BB ($20.87)

   Pre-flop: ($0.35, 10 players) Hero is CO Q♦ K♣
   6 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75

   Flop: J♦ K♥ 4♥ ($2.10, 2 players)
   BB bets $1.50, Hero says "wat??!"

4. $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
   8 players
   Converted at weaktight.com

   Stacks:
   UTG+1 ($4.75)
   BTN ($28.61)
   Hero ($5.00)

   Pre-flop: ($0.35, 8 players) Hero is BB 5♥ 6♥
   1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 3 folds, BTN calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero checks

   Flop: 4♠ 3♥ 4♥ ($0.85, 3 players)
   Hero says "wat??!"

   What if Turn: 7:d
   What if Turn: T:h
   What if Turn: A:s

Next week, we will have a proper talk about odds and outs. In light of these subjects I will also supply you with new charts for maximum profitability. These charts will also help you a lot when you would like to plug any leaks.

Also please post your blogs here, if you're a coming to the basic coachings, as I would love to know how everyone's doing.

See ya all next week!

Groeten,
Leo

#Hand 1
Obvious Fold according to the SHC. As an addition to justify the Fold action is due the fact that UTG raises pre-flop. UTG does not play many hands because he is OOP on every street.

#Hand 2
Fold because according to the Stack:Raise ratio You have a ratio of 3:1 which means that according to the chart, you only can call/go-all-in with AA-TT & AK/AQ

#Hand 3
BB Donkbets but then the Pot is way bigger than Hero's stack namely $3.6 against Hero's $2.6 stack (1.4:1)
Therefore Hero should, must and do in all times when this situation ever occurs Push All-in. Especially with TopPairSolidKicker.

#Hand 4
Donkbet the flop 2/3 of the pot so in this case $0.60±

If the turn brings a 7, you should be cautious of the still laying flushdraw that could be hit around 20% from Turn to the River. So fire a Second barrel by betting again (2/3) of the pot. This means pushing All-in.

If the turn brings a 10 of hearts, You have a flush but any other flush Villains has will beat you. If Villains calls your c-bet on the flop then you should be considering that Villain either has a Set or a Flushdraw as well.
I should check/fold this one because there is a high chance you could be beat by a higher flush in my opinion.

If the turn brings an Ace of Spades, I should fire a second barrel(2nd C-bet) meaning you have to push all-in.
You still got 16 outs after all to hit a straight that is higher than an Ace-2-3-4-5 straight or a flush.

thanks Leo. I found a lot of value in your coaching session.

I admit I did slow play a hand, AA on the BB raised by the guy that had been stealing every blind (he knows I'm a short stacker so why not take advantage of me)

Is it bad to slowplay? I checked the loose aggressive player on the flop (low cards) and he bet - I went all in and he called and I doubled up.

If I had played short stack strategy I should have reraised him preflop - I was thinking he would probably fold and I'd win another small pot (my VPIP being around 7) Being greedy, I slowplayed it. I reasoned since I'd need to reraise half my stack - and might as well go in, that it was the same effective result as slowplay, where we see all the cards and all my money is in.

I figure this is good strategy against loose aggressive players when you're in the BB with AA, and he's your only opponent. What do you think?

Leo:

Great coaching last weekend. I went from red to black in one day following your advice. I am now up 150bb vice down 50bb.

Did you have a chance to look at helmanicks post on raisydaisy for steals? I have been using it and it seems like another good addition to basic play. I like it better than limping with small pocket pairs. Look at http://raisydaisy.pokerstrategy.com/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=567&blogId=17

Can you offer some advice on protecting the bb. I find big stacks like to push around short stacks. What range of hands should you be reraising or calling with against a min raise or 3xbb raise from the btn or sb?

Hand 1 - fold basic SHC

Hand 2 - rem:raise 3.75:1.25 fold

Hand 3 - little more interesting - top pair decent kicker made hand. What could the BB hold? If he was protecting his blind possibly 2 hearts for a draw or Kx. Unlikely he holds AA or AK as he would have raised preflop. Unless he is a trapper (this is where note taking is important - I always mark guys who slow play AA,AK in the blinds or anywhere for that matter). pot is currently $3.60 so half is half your stack so push all-in.

Hand 4 - perfect OESD+FD+two overcards I can hardley count that high there are so many outs. From Leos SHC monster draw > 12 outs so raise 2/3 and reraise or raise each street.

Thanks Leo

My Goal for this week - Gold Member!! ♦ ♦