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[Closed] NL Basic Short Stack Strategy by Leo258

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dallievas
Joined: 30.11.2007

Hi Leo,
Thanks was nice coaching.I like your plan about this week`s coaching and let`s play more.
Hands:
1)Hero says :a)"f...g morons" and folds according to the SHC.
b)"f...k the SHC,I hate those minraisers and heard something about EV (maybe I have 34% vs 25%,20%,19%) +FE and squeezes (push).Note:do not use this on NL10 and without stats/reads on opps.
2)Hero says lots of bad words and folds because ratio 3:1 (need 2.5:1 to push).
3)Hero says "what an ugly flop,I`ll make pot odds better for you to call" and shoves.
4)Hero says"why you bring that disgusting second four,why you`re doing this to me" and
a)bets flop,bets turn(pot size)/push.
b)bets flop,bets/push turn.
c)bets flop,thinks a little bit "how this thing in BSS is called....pot control" then checks,calls a little bet and reevaluates hand on the river.

Groeten uit Lithuania, see you.

******
My Goal for this week do not go broke.


Hiya!
Another coaching tonight where we'll be focussing a bit more on odds and outs if we get the chance. I will first supply you with a new chart where you can see whether or not it would be OK to continue playing according to your pot odds.

To answer your questions;
@Gerv: There are some things I disagree upon, but this one might be the most interesting one:
Hand 1; I think you give UTG raiser too much credit here. Min raises are mostly very weak on this limit and I consider such a move here just like a limp. With 3 callers and the AQ being s000tid, we can make a push here imo.

@ bckdrflush:
It is not "bad" to slowplay, but as a shortstacker there are not many situations where it is profitable to do so as we are giving away too good odds.
Sure, sometimes it works out, but most of the times it just isnt worth it. I would much rather have him fold to my aces preflop most of the times then having him suck me out sometimes.

@SecurityDrew: Nice to hear you're doing so well!
Actually I helped helemaalnicks with making these ranges for his SSS-project. The thing is, him being an experienced player, he also has a lot more post-flop experience then most basic SSSers. As like 3/4th of your stack goes in post flop, stealing isnt advisable. Sure, sometimes it might work, but with a wrong move, loads of steals do have to work out to compensate for that loss.
Limping with small pocket pairs however doesnt really pose this problem, as you will always limp when you have the right odds and you will only continue upon hitting your set. It might not be as exciting as stealing, but it's more profitable - and that's what it's all about.

Protecting BB; Minraising I always consider like a limp, so doing this vastly broadens your re-raise range for protecting the bb from minbet steals.

Almost gold btw? =)

@dallievas: nice one @ hand1...
Like your other explanations too!

How's not going broke working for ya?

Groeten,
Leo


Good evening everyone,

Today we had another great coaching session with many listeners... Nice to see you all again. Also we had many interesting hands and a lot of questions, because today we introduced an intermediate Starting Hand Chart. This Chart goes beyond the basic SHC and gives you more hands to play with. This is one of the exclusive offers made to visitors of the basic-coaching.

Some first timers today, which is always really nice to see. Only saw raki22 saying it was his first time... Micha1180, who is normally playing FL, having a look @ SSS. And of course cjsilva, who as proclaimed beginner asked a lot of interesting questions. We also had Subar, who is a Russian basic and silver SSS-coach, really nice to see such a mixed audience and I hope you all enjoyed it ;)

One of the expansions on normal SSS, is that I advice treating min-raises pre-flop like a limp. On the lower limits people usually do this with many weak hands. So on NL25 for example, where the BB is $0.25, someone would min-raise to $0.50. I would always treat this as a limp and raise to $1.50 (3x the original amount). If there was one limper I would raise to $2.-, etc.
This enables you to play more hands then the usual range, as you would normally only play hands where you would reraise with. In this situation you can play any hand with which you would normally raise.
An example is this hand of last weeks coaching:
$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($26.25)
MP2 ($6.22)
BTN ($49.60)
Hero ($4.30)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 9 players) Hero is BB Q♠ A♠
UTG raises to $0.50, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero says "wat"?!?

Almost everyone said this should be folded. But pushing here is really profitable.

Fanti1 asked a lot of questions, the most interesting being: "so if i havent got stats do you think its better for me to play bss where i can play nl 10 or 25 than play sss nl50 without stats"
Well, to be honest, I think NL50 can really be played profitable on any platform playing with a bit more advanced SSS charts, which is offered in the coaching channel. Stats is not yet needed there. If you are using stats, I would read up on stealing and such for NL50. Sure, if you enjoy BSS, you can also do this, but it isn't necessary to have stats be profitable on NL50.

Raki22 wanted to know a bit more about discounting, which is very understandable, as it's a difficult subject. A bit of theory on the subject can be found here, but also the Bronze+ SHC offers a table with advice on where to discount and how much. This leads to easy post flop decisions on draws. Understanding this and employing it, is vital to becoming a better player.

urmo1 asked:"what about stealing i haven't heard anything about stealing?"
Well the reason for this, is that stealing shouldn't be done on NL10-NL25 imo. Especially if you havent got stats. When you make a mistake here, it can be very costly as 80% of your stack goes in post flop. The additions suggested in the new SHC are already a big addition to the basic SSS and should give you enough to play around with I hope ;)

A last note I would like to make is that slowplaying is almost never an option. Pushing however does give you lots of action a lot of the time, since many players on these limits think this is a weak move by a shorty. My advice is to push any hand which you would normally raise with after 3 or more limpers...

Some examples of todays session, where there were some weird calls:
http://weaktight.com/273997
http://weaktight.com/273998

Please feel free to leave any feedback.

Have a nice weekend all!

Groeten,
Leo


Subar
Joined: 30.12.2007

Hi Leo, it was i nice coaching ;) Have you looked through the chart I mentioned? What are your thoughts on it?


I agree with subar - I joined you last night and I have to say it was the best coaching I have ever sat in on.

You explained all the stuff very well and answered all the questions with knowledge - Thanks again.

Just got to put it into practice now :)

Paul


Thanks guys, and ofcourse you are welcome ;)

Subar; You meant this thread I think, right?

The surrounding discussion and explanation being all russian does make it a bit difficult, but it does really look very interesting.
There are a few things which I questioned though, like if it's mathematically correct to just add those percentage to each other... More so because the draws mentioned aren't all of the same strength / some have better showdown value. I'm not sure here...
Also I think you have to consider showdown value. Ax or a pp can win a hand sometimes, without improving, where this will be a lot harder for low SC's or something. Has this been done?

For the Bronze+ chart offered in the coaching this is all considered. Also, the chart considers the risk of post-flop leaks. It is vital that - when expanding your SSS like the bronze+ chart suggests - you do minimize post-flop leaks, otherwise a +EV adjustment turns out to be very -EV ;)
As I assume that the people using the bronze+ chart don't all have the same post-flop qualities, there is a bit of a safety margin in there. Considering this is essential when making something for the masses imo :)

Quite an interesting subject though ;)

Leo


Gerv
Joined: 07.05.2008

Originally posted by punta
I agree with subar - I joined you last night and I have to say it was the best coaching I have ever sat in on.

oh my, i just missed it :( reporting from spain atm for a little as 5 minutes. I read through your review Leo, very interesting, could you give me a download link to both the russian SHC and your Intermediate SHC for SSS ?¿

I will be back ;)
Gerv

PS a lot of swedes (sweets) here


Heya Gerv,

Hopefully you're having a nice vacation over there! The Russian thing isn't a SHC, but more of an odds thingie. It's linked in the previous post if you wanna have a look at some funky russian пиво -.-

The intermediate SHC is offered in coaching as an extra for the people watching/listening to the SSS-coaching. Even though you're mostly there, I would rather not post a link here ;)

Hope thats ok...

Anyway, have a nice time in Spain!

Leo


Hey people!

Today's coaching didn't have many difficult situations unfortunately, nevertheless you did fire off loads of questions again - resulting in many interesting discussions...
Again we discussed the intermediate Bronze+ chart, which many of you have used, and it seems it's all pretty clear since there weren't many questions on this subject =)

So lets walk through some of the questions;

Hlynkinn: After you double up like you did on the bottom left table... What hands do you play while your waiting for the blinds to reach you? only KK and AA?
Many people do suggest this. This general answer isn't good enough I think. You can surely play more hands, if you have good post flop skills and maybe a bit of BSS-experience. If you don't feel comfortable playing 25+BB though, you really shouldn't. If you have a tendency to tilt after a bad beat with your aces and 40BB - there's really not a problem to just leave the table straight away. Although obv aces and kings aren't going to make you lose loads of money on the long run, tilting can! ;)

SecurityDrew: what hands do you see value for completing the small blind - does it depend more on having a couple of limpers? I have given up completing the SB against the BB because I get reraised so often.
Well, the bronze+ chart tells you when you can complete a SB. Do however consider your postflop OOP play.
Sitting on the BB; when someone opencomplete's his sb this does indicate a very bad hand most of the times. Usually I raise any two cards in such a spot.

Rollswap: isnt it a disadvantage that many players know that u're from PS
The thing is that many players who buy in short arent from PS. Theyre just bad players who are not buying in for 100bb because theyre scared of losing it. So therefor they buy in with the minimum - 20 (which theyre obv gonna lose too). This being the case, I think a lot of the times -on lower limits- you get very loose calls. If you however do think someone has a read on you and he does adapt his play to it. Do so accordingly ;)
Here's a good example:
$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($38.23)
UTG+1 ($4.27)
MP1 ($23.87)
MP2 ($25.07)
MP3 ($25.70)
CO ($27.33)
Hero ($4.65)
SB ($4.75)
BB ($4.55)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 9 players) Hero is BTN K♣ A♦
6 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB goes all-in $4.30, Hero calls $3.55

Flop: J♦ 5♦ 2♣ ($9.20, 2 players)

Turn: 4♣ ($9.20, 2 players)

River: Q♦ ($9.20, 2 players)

Final Pot: $9.20
BB shows: Q♥ A♥
Hero shows: K♣ A♦

BB wins $8.74 ( won +$4.19 )
Hero lost -$4.55

Vollheinz: titan is a bad choice for SSS - way too much chortstacks at the tables
Yea, lotta shorstackers there mate! Though many are really really bad, so try to fiddle with this a bit. For example, act like a total idiot when raising (weird amounts which are really close to your 4bb+1/limper) or say weird things drunks would do... This gets you a lot of action and im quite curious how this works out for ya ;)

Ok, so hope to see y'all next time and have a nice weekend!

Groeten,
Leo


looking forward to your "playing like a drunk" video =)

there should be a "remember me about the next coaching" function, so that i wont miss one again.
was the first coaching you did i attended and i really liked it, so im looking forward to the next one =)

My blog


no coaching today? =(


Gerv
Joined: 07.05.2008

Originally posted by r0ybaer
no coaching today? =(

Leo has just emigrated to Gibraltar, Spain on Tuesday. He is doing fine but he is busy lately. Jaro is taking over the basic SSS coachings for now, If Im correct they will be held tomorrow at 18:00 CET.


Originally posted by Gerv

Originally posted by r0ybaer
no coaching today? =(

Leo has just emigrated to Gibraltar, Spain on Tuesday. He is doing fine but he is busy lately. Jaro is taking over the basic SSS coachings for now, If Im correct they will be held tomorrow at 18:00 CET.

oh, cool for leo, sad for me :(

thx4info


Hey r0yebear, yeah had to move :heart:

So @you and all other (soon to be) SSSers:
Next week I'll be doing the coachings again. You are more then welcome to join of course. Please feel free to vote when you want to visit the coaching, as we would like to do these coachings at the best time possible for everyone.

Here's the thread: When do you want your SSS-bronze coaching?

Hope to see you then guys!

With kind regards,
Leo

ps. we'll also move to stars, since party had a update which doesnt allow play money account to watch cash tables :(


Originally posted by Leo258
ps. we'll also move to stars, since party had a update which doesnt allow play money account to watch cash tables :(


Any updates on a Silver SSS ?

Been wanting to get the advanced charts for a while now :)


TheBu11d0g
Joined: 25.07.2008

Hi ya Leo,

We spoke about a study plan briefly in your coaching session on sunday and you asked me to put up a post for you for a more detailed answer on the matter. I downloaded your Hints and Tips sheet and in it you mention about a study plan for the SSS. I was just wondering about your thoughts on this and any ideas on what it should contain.

Also i wanted to say how much i enjoyed my first coaching session with you on the Bronze SSS and it was a joy to listen to you and your thinking on the choices you made and the questions you were asked. Im already looking forward to next weeks coaching session.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards - Steve


TheBu11d0g
Joined: 25.07.2008

Im only new to the SSS but from reviewing the SHC i think it was played as per and it seems to me that you just got sucked out on because the villian had AA and decided to slow play them from the get go. Most players i guess would have raised/re-raised preflop and because he didn't then your reading of the play couldn't be 100%.

Please feel free to correct if i am at all wrong as it will help my learning as well.

Regards,

Steve


Hi Leo, question come to my mind after the coaching during my evening session : How do you deal with minraises ? Say for example you are holding a decent hand like AJ in late position, there were some limpers but suddenly, someone decides to raise 2xBB. You should fold your hand according to SHC, but I think at those limits, some donks try their luck by raising some crap and hoping that everyone folds (which often happens). What is your opinion on this topic ? Thanks