True rakeback vs advertised rakeback

Originally posted by Kyyberi
Transparency is one of the important values for a trust-worthy and reliable poker room. GG advertises certain rakeback in their Fish Buffet, but the amount of points you actually get is based on Player Value Index. Despite multiple requests for them to open up the numbers, GG hasn't done it. Here is how it affects mine:

GG poker Player Value Index means that winning players get a lot less rakeback. I played 1300 hands at PLO50. Rake is at least 10bb/100, most likely closer to 15bb/100. So even with conservative estimation, I raked at least $65. Got less than 3K Fish Buffet points, which equals $30 rake. I am not even making profit with my current run, and my rakeback is less than half of the advertised. My concern is not based on one session, have played a lot more and seen the same pattern going on.

The weird thing is that I am not even making significant profit, yet still PVI halves my rakeback from the advertised. I would assume it gets even worse for winning ones. If you are interested, you can easily estimate your own rake based on your stakes and how much you have usually raked at tracked sites. And then compare that to your Fish Buffet points.

When I played there I realized that the only way to tell how much rake was paid was to record the bankroll at the beginning and end of each session.
After that, use the Pokercraft tool to determine what GGPoker said I had won.
When you subtract the two you get the amount of rake paid.

Since (If I remember correctly) the fish buffet resets to 0 each day, there is actually 0 rakeback unless you play a certain volume.

Things may have changed substantially since I last played there though.

Cheers,
VS

The time you have to fill your Buffet is based on the level. From 1 to 30.

I played there quite a lot shortdeck, and there was a promotion for Flush jackpot.
Extra RB was taken to a jackpot without a cap, which does not count to a fish buffet, and they do rake you preflop I am certain that You have raked more than 15bb/100, and if I am not mistaked PLO rake is not capped.

Uncapped, but only 3% rake. So I think it evens it out a little.

@VorpalF2F, there is also big hand jackpot, which means that 1bb is taken from every pot of over 30bb. And that is given back in jackpots. So if you don't hit Quads+, in the session you pay a lot more "rake" with your method. But it's still a good idea, will do that to get precise numbers.

I posted this question to the GGPoker discord server:

Hi everyone -- can anyone point me to a link where the "Player Value Index" is described?
The term is used on this page:
https://help.ggpoker.com/article/854-how-is-the-rake-distributed-when-two-players-split-the-pot
On that page are two more links, the first reads: "Section 1.6 of GGNetwork’s Network Rules." it's URL is http://contents.sdock.net/leaflet/GGPOKER/networkrules/en/?tz=+08:00 -- this link is just plain blank in firefox, shows nothing in edge and shows "contents.sdock.net is currently unable to handle this request." in Chrome

Reply on discord
That's a metric that is not published. It's only known to the network, even GGPoker staff have no idea how it's calculated, other than it's on a player by player basis.

Now it makes sense why it's so hard to get anything more than 15% rakeback, and even then it's not from all my payed rake.
Wouldn't this be considered misleading advertising?

Originally posted by martins1337
Wouldn't this be considered misleading advertising?

Perhaps -- if it was advertising.
I'm pretty sure that it is all explained in the Terms & Conditions -- assuming that anyone can understand them -- of find links to the T&C that are not broken.

When I first heard about GGPoker one streamer that I followed had lots of tickets to give away, and I deposited there, and played the tickets and enjoyed myself.

Then they took away the missions freeroll -- and the missions themselves -- and brought in that extremely annoying river card slowroll thing, and it just ceased being enjoyable.

I've been back a few times, but still no thanks.

Maybe if they introduced some lowball -- or PLO8 or HORSE or 8-Game I'd go back again.

As for the player pool being "soft" -- I think that is a myth circulated by pros waiting for the fish -- and in PLO or Hold'em I'm no pro.

Cheers,
VS

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
As for the player pool being "soft" -- I think that is a myth circulated by pros waiting for the fish -- and in PLO or Hold'em I'm no pro.

I think I have heard every single poker site that isn't Pokerstars (or maybe Full Tilt, when it was still a thing) being referred to as "so ridiculously soft", "like 2008 soft", "like no one there has any clue how to play" etc, etc...

And every single time, it turned out that the players people are talking about are just standard micro stakes players. Not very good at all, but they know how to play poker. Sometimes even better than the standard pool on Stars, but either way, certainly not enough of a skill gap to warrant a move.

In most cases, I think it's just confirmation bias when people make these claims.

Originally posted by martins1337
Now it makes sense why it's so hard to get anything more than 15% rakeback, and even then it's not from all my payed rake.
Wouldn't this be considered misleading advertising?

Very misleading and non-transparent.

I raked around $400 today and got 10K points (equals $100 raking without PVI). So my true rakeback is one quarter of what's advertised, dropping from 40% to 10%.

That's insane, almost like at Stars.

fuck you PVI

I found it funny how long time grinders still surpeised how GG's PVI works
This is known for ages!!!!

But i found it depressing how GG still crushing the market despite of these things.

Tbf there are some GG doing great: low MTT fees and anyone can buy share for free in the staking section.

correct me if I'm wrong here. Just want to be sure if I understand how GG calculates rake:
From what I know (rush cash) rake is capped at 3 BB. but jackpot is uncapped. regular I think cap is higher, same jackpot rake applied.
let's assume we're not in blinds
f.e: pot is 200 bb, and we split:
normal rake 6.25% ( i think) 3 BB cap = 3 BB
jackpot rake 1 bb for every 30 bb in pot: = 6BB (maybe 7 not sure if they round it up)
Total rake paid - 9-10 BB
Pot received - 191 / 2 = 95.5
effective rake paid - 4.5 BB
Rake you receive for rake back - 3 / 4 (VPIP players + blinds (i think)) 0.75 BB.
If PVI is applied it will be from 0.75 BB

For PLO:
f.e: pot is 200 bb, and we split:
normal rake 3% ( i think) uncapped = 6 BB
jackpot rake 1 bb for every 30 bb in pot: = 6BB (maybe 7 not sure if they round it up)
Total rake paid - 12-13 BB
Pot received - 188 / 2 = 94
effective rake paid - 6 BB
Rake you receive for rake back - 6 / 4 (VPIP players + blinds (i think)) 1.25 BB.
If PVI is applied it will be from 1.25 BB

Originally posted by kacsa1st
I found it funny how long time grinders still surpeised how GG's PVI works
This is known for ages!!!!

But i found it depressing how GG still crushing the market despite of these things.

Tbf there are some GG doing great: low MTT fees and anyone can buy share for free in the staking section.

They do have a grate app for playing poker. Tables are clean enough and lobby is easy to understand, and it's fun to play with emojis

I knew that PVI reduces it, but the magnitude of it's effect came as surprise.

leaderboard is also rakeback. so i guess, its not so bad after all.

It is, as most other sites have decent or better rakeback AND leaderboards.

Originally posted by martins1337
They do have a grate app for playing poker. Tables are clean enough and lobby is easy to understand, and it's fun to play with emojis

these are just minor things no affect on $/h.
but there r some things which have affect ex: software crushing random time an all tables gone. registering to lottery sngs and not even opening the tables.

"grate app for playing poker" - so so, when not crashing
"Tables are clean enough and lobby is easy to understand" - i can understand any lobby
"it's fun to play with emojis" - couldn't care less

i see the points why recs like the site but i see all of their disadvantages (all sites have theirs)

Originally posted by SirPaulius
correct me if I'm wrong here. Just want to be sure if I understand how GG calculates rake:
From what I know (rush cash) rake is capped at 3 BB. but jackpot is uncapped. regular I think cap is higher, same jackpot rake applied.
let's assume we're not in blinds
f.e: pot is 200 bb, and we split:
normal rake 6.25% ( i think) 3 BB cap = 3 BB
jackpot rake 1 bb for every 30 bb in pot: = 6BB (maybe 7 not sure if they round it up)
Total rake paid - 9-10 BB
Pot received - 191 / 2 = 95.5
effective rake paid - 4.5 BB
Rake you receive for rake back - 3 / 4 (VPIP players + blinds (i think)) 0.75 BB.
If PVI is applied it will be from 0.75 BB

For PLO:
f.e: pot is 200 bb, and we split:
normal rake 3% ( i think) uncapped = 6 BB
jackpot rake 1 bb for every 30 bb in pot: = 6BB (maybe 7 not sure if they round it up)
Total rake paid - 12-13 BB
Pot received - 188 / 2 = 94
effective rake paid - 6 BB
Rake you receive for rake back - 6 / 4 (VPIP players + blinds (i think)) 1.25 BB.
If PVI is applied it will be from 1.25 BB

AFAIK at NLHE tables the rake is 5% and no JP on R&C tables!
i was not a crusher and my PVI was moving around 0.2-0.3. wasn't grinding a lot that's why no LB money so the RB was the same as i played on PS ♦
and one more thing to add. with a way lower cap on GG the rake was the same (thanks to preflop rake) as on PS 6-7bb/100 for me!