AA multi way 3bet pot

Cold call a 3b may not be a monster. JJ-99, QJs-87s can do that too.
Raise bigger preflop.
I would raise his donk on flop.

i'll bite: if BB's betting tells you what he has, then the decision is a lot easier. if it doesn't tell you what he has, or he's just trying to bull you out of the hand, then you have to keep playing the AA because you're dominating the flop. so the question is whether (1) he has a set or two pair, or (2) is trying to steal the pot or simply bull out anybody who might draw something that could beat him. could be he just has JJ, dominates the flop, and so is taking a risk to try to win the hand on 5th street before somebody else can beat him. if he has two pair, then the problem is that lots of your outs also improve his hand.

He gets a good price to call with wide range of hands. When multiway I will lead with a wider range than heads up because it has a huge fold equity. You are giving him too much credit. You can raise his donk but calling shouldn't be bad either?
I would squeeze a bit bigger pre flop.

I disagree with you all apart from maybe a bigger squeeze.

We are 200 bb deep if he check raises sets it gives me chance to fold, if i raise this donk bet im pot committed and have to call allin in a spot where there is a very high chance of him holding a set, even with the range of JJ-99, QJs-87s that nitrol suggests, i dont think he will be donking the pot with draws, this is NL 5 the majority of the player pool are passive,and any aggresive plays with draws are going to be check shove. The bet on the flop leads to a 2/3 bet on the turn and a river shove for equal bets to put me all in.

I would play the set the same way to disguise my set vs OPs with this stack but a smaller flop bet

Here is some equity calculations based on some ranges i beleive are arcurate based on what nitrol said even though i dissagree with him i beleive he wouldnt play any dray in the way he did

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: Js5s9c
Equity Win Tie

MP2 8.64% 8.50% 0.14% { TT, 88-66, AdKd, AhKh, AcKc, AdQd, AhQh, AcQc, KdQd, KhQh, KcQc, AdJd, AhJh, AcJc, KdJd, KhJh, KcJc, QdJd, QhJh, QcJc, AdTd, AhTh, AcTc, KdTd, KhTh, KcTc, QdTd, QhTh, QcTc, JdTd, JhTh, JcTc, AQo+ }

CO 27.35% 27.35% 0.00% { AhAc }

BB 64.01% 63.87% 0.14% { JJ, 99, 55, AsKs, AsQs, KsQs, AsJs, KsJs, QsJs, AsTs, KsTs, QsTs, JsTs, Js9s, Ts9s, 9s8s, 8s7s, 7s6s }

You cannot make a good assumption for 2 villains. BB has connected in some way with the board - AJ, A9s, JJ-99, can have some draws.

Villain is unknown. If we fold to a single donk, we are giving him too much credit.
If villain is a fish, he might be donking a wide range. If he is a good player he might be donking a lot too when we are multiway. I think I would donk here quite often myself too. When we are multiway and we would be check calling, I think it is better to lead.

Villains donk can easily be QQ for example. If you have somewhat balanced sqz range, hands like QQ and KK should crush your overall sqz range, especially on this flop.

UTG folds before it is our turn, so his range is irrelevant. It is possible that villain has some combos of QQ+ that he might play this way. Also AJ might donk to get info, steal the aggression, generate a lot of folds and make his turn and river play easier.

MP2 59.86% 58.50% 1.36% AhAc
MP3 40.14% 38.78% 1.36% AA, JJ-99, 55, KdKh, KdKs, KdKc, QdQh, QdQs, QhQs, QdQc, AJs, AsKs, AsQs, JsTs, Ts9s, 9s8s, 8s7s, 7s6s, 6s5s, AJo

You can add or reduce the amount of flush draws, it makes only a few percent difference.

This is a very good hand to post because it is important to realize what happens here.
-a thing that would make me mark this player as a fish is the fact that he cold calls 3bets. I dont know what it means but regulars rarely do cold call 3bets!
-donking is usually a fishy move , makes me think again that he is a fish
-his sizing is big, making me think he is a fish

another possible thing is that he is a semifish. Spewing preflop with pocket pairs, and postflop he just plays his cards and is usually passive.

Most of the time he is the first type of fish so i would assume that and continue with my hand ... and put him on Top pair, a flush draw or some weird AK ,AQ

Originally posted by nitrol
You cannot make a good assumption for 2 villains. BB has connected in some way with the board - AJ, A9s, JJ-99, can have some draws.

Thats the hand range what i wrote down for BB and our equity is 27% vs that range, and i beleive his range is much stronger based on his actions, since i dont think villain donks with AJ A9s and the draws

As I tried to explain earlier, fish will do unpredictable things. Good players will lead here with quite a few hands too. If our donk range would be sets only, we would get exploited. Thinking that villain has JJ or 99 always here can't be 100% accurate.

Poker would be super easy if we could accurately put unknown villains to a 6 combo range already on the flop

Haha exactly. So, raise bigger preflop and call the donk.

I agree that you should have raised bigger pre-flop.

About the flop, vs unknown, I think folding is too tight. You could have called flop and decided turn, or perhaps, raised flop. AA as over cards on the flop in a 3-bet pot in NL5 could be played as a monster most of the time in my opinion.

I find this hand near trivial, but I am perfectly aware that others have diametrically opposed opinions.

Fold flop? Are you mad? You have quite likely to have nearly the hand that is best that is not a set. Being so weak is terrible.

Raise flop? Are you insane? You have a good but not unbeatable hand. Raising a pot sized donk is escalating this to a really big pot - precisely exactly what unimproved AA are not made for on a drawy flop.

That's all one needs to consider. Then one could go about playing the game myvillainisafishandthereforeisdonkingmiddlepairsoImustraisehimtomakehimpaytodrawtotwopair if one believes fish cant flop good.

One of the reasons I don't play 200bb deep effectively lol standard 100bb stacks would be easier imo to play this hand. Would raise bigger pre though

Originally posted by la55i
Villain is unknown. If we fold to a single donk, we are giving him too much credit.
If villain is a fish, he might be donking a wide range. If he is a good player he might be donking a lot too when we are multiway. I think I would donk here quite often myself too. When we are multiway and we would be check calling, I think it is better to lead.

Villains donk can easily be QQ for example. If you have somewhat balanced sqz range, hands like QQ and KK should crush your overall sqz range, especially on this flop.

UTG folds before it is our turn, so his range is irrelevant. It is possible that villain has some combos of QQ+ that he might play this way. Also AJ might donk to get info, steal the aggression, generate a lot of folds and make his turn and river play easier.

MP2 59.86% 58.50% 1.36% AhAc
MP3 40.14% 38.78% 1.36% AA, JJ-99, 55, KdKh, KdKs, KdKc, QdQh, QdQs, QhQs, QdQc, AJs, AsKs, AsQs, JsTs, Ts9s, 9s8s, 8s7s, 7s6s, 6s5s, AJo

You can add or reduce the amount of flush draws, it makes only a few percent difference.

I believe your giving this player too much credit, When is it ok to cold call a 3 bet OOP, right behind the raiser so were not IP to get the exact odds, also UTG could 4bet, witch makes him a weaker player IMO, such a weaker player will not have a donking range for multi way pots, he will just play face up poker like most of the loose passive players do "bet when hit check when missed"

Originally posted by bonecore
This is a very good hand to post because it is important to realize what happens here.
-a thing that would make me mark this player as a fish is the fact that he cold calls 3bets. I dont know what it means but regulars rarely do cold call 3bets!
-donking is usually a fishy move , makes me think again that he is a fish
-his sizing is big, making me think he is a fish

another possible thing is that he is a semifish. Spewing preflop with pocket pairs, and postflop he just plays his cards and is usually passive.

Most of the time he is the first type of fish so i would assume that and continue with my hand ... and put him on Top pair, a flush draw or some weird AK ,AQ

If he is such a fish wouldnt he be scared to donk such hands like AJ QQ since he will just be scared of me holding AA and not thinking about later streets?

Originally posted by la55i
Villain is unknown. If we fold to a single donk, we are giving him too much credit.
If villain is a fish, he might be donking a wide range. If he is a good player he might be donking a lot too when we are multiway. I think I would donk here quite often myself too. When we are multiway and we would be check calling, I think it is better to lead.

Everything you said here is right, but there isnt anything solid there is a lot of mights and maybe he will, he is unknown we do not know his donking range, he could only donk sets he could donk FDs TPTK OP, we are just gambling on a chance that he is a fish and is donking AK witch is unlikley, i think its a bad spot to take a gamble with 200bbs, and its best to fold the flop and wait for a better spot, since were still in the same situation on the turn when he bets but only pot committed, we still only have an OP witch isnt strong enough to go all in with

I'm not giving villain too much credit. If he is fishy, he can have pretty much anything. There are many types of fish and some of them really can donk this with a lot of hands and some are not scared about your hand. Some might be unable to even think about your hand and when they hold TPTK or overpair they think it is the nuts. As I said, those guys are unpredictable and we can not know 100% sure what their range is.

What was your question in this hand? You are able to put villain accurately on 6 combos only and you don't even consider that your fold might have been too tight even if 7 guys are telling you that.

Well your raise should be bigger preflop

But i realy think u did make a good fold Most of the time i see u losing here, the guy i calling ur 3bet OOP ? he probably has JJ or 99 here..
He is not playing like QQ, he is scared to make an 4 bet pre, but have balls enough to lead the flop ?

What should the guy do with A♠:K♠: or Q♠:T♠: ? the pot bet makes me believe he is scared for the flush draws, so i guess he is just playing a set over here...

Greetz Wes

your making an assumption that the player is fishy, how do you know he is fishy? What i see from this hand is, he cold called preflop with a 200bb effective stack size, I assume he is set mining with no other reletive imformation, then he donks the pot a pot bet represents a monster with no imformation about betsizes tells against this player.

Just because there is 7 people saying they would have called raised the flop etc doesnt make them correct i am yet to see 1 detailed description other then comments like "fish donk AK AQ"