JTs getting second pair OTT

I am going to call this vs the fish.

i have an opinion for this hand, but I guess this will be extremely offending for you..Well played then...I will call, yeah..Why not..if you call OTF, you must call OTR as well. I guess..

With only backdoor equity on the flop multi way I would just fold flop.
Villain could have top pair and if you are against a flush draw you need to hope villain will slowdown on 1 point

Cheers,
SDK1987

Opponent is currently (50 hands) playing 57/28/10 and AF 2.5
He is only taking a few hands (22%) to showdown, and losing 84% of them.

Yeah, but rather wait until you hit more than a back door. You want to win all of V bay bays and not some. I fold on this flop.

Originally posted by NoNameHypo
i have an opinion for this hand, but I guess this will be extremely offending for you..Well played then...I will call, yeah..Why not..if you call OTF, you must call OTR as well. I guess..

First of all, absolutely nothing you can say will offend me. I've been a mod here for over 10 years and I've seen hundreds of uncultured jerks come and go.
Every PokerStrategy.com member already has an opinion of me — some good, some bad. Nothing you can possibly say will change their opinion of me.
However it will change their opinion of you.

I recognize that the hand was indeed unusual, but it started with the donk bet. I just did not believe he had anything at all actually.

Here is the rest of the hand:
River: ($6.88) 6♦: (2 players)
SB bets $3.29, Hero calls $3.29

Total pot: $13.46 (Rake: $0.61)

Showdown:
SB shows 4♣:K♣: (a pair of Sixes)
CO (Hero) shows T♠:J♠: (two pair, Jacks and Sixes)
CO (Hero) wins $12.85

On flop I think its raise, not call. Problem with calling is that you have no showdown value and he will likely continue on Turn.

Originally posted by EmiyaKiritsugu
On flop I think its raise, not call. Problem with calling is that you have no showdown value and he will likely continue on Turn.

I like a raise here too. I bet it's GTO vs the super loose opponent.

Having said all that, the fish had a decent hand here, tbh.

Originally posted by Dr1fter808

Originally posted by EmiyaKiritsugu
On flop I think its raise, not call. Problem with calling is that you have no showdown value and he will likely continue on Turn.

I like a raise here too. I bet it's GTO vs the super loose opponent.

Having said all that, the fish had a decent hand here, tbh.

Agreed — but only because of opponent's tendency to fold post-flop.
Against calling stations, or perceptive players the flop raise has huge reverse implieds — unless you raise/fold OTF

The problem i see with a raise OTF is we wont know what to do if V decides to call. We risk find ourself in a big pot with absolutely nothing against a potentially fishy player. Usually such a donks indiciate weakness or induce (rarely) or something between. Most of the time he'll have a little something. So to me calling seems more reasonable in this spot. Hero have a lot of backdoor equity as well.

As played i am gonna calldown till the end against such a sizes. We are most likely against a recreational player so weird stuff is possible.

Opponent is currently (50 hands) playing 57/28/10 and AF 2.5
He is only taking a few hands (22%) to showdown, and losing 84% of them.

This info means the fish is weak, when he bets 50% OTF vs two players. How's that? And that's why we like the raise..He will fold often enough, because he have nothing. What we have then? His "nothing" can be better than our "nothing". And what is the plan? If we hit a second pair, we will have a very good hand vs his range :f_biggrin:. What if he checks OTT. Are we betting for protection? With second pair? But what if he plays bet-bet-bet..We still have a -EV call OTF. Because we will fold OTT too much.
This is an insane play. You should fold OTF. No reason for call. Or raise...At all..This is a huge mistake..

Hero have a lot of backdoor equity as well.

Pills, pills...Fast...It's not such a thing in Hold em like "a lot of backdoor equity"...This looks dumb. And it's dumb..

How's that? And that's why we like the raise..He will fold often enough, because he have nothing.

That's not the case. You make such an assumptions without properly defining his donk. This is based on field tendencies. We cant be sure whether he fold or call. That's why raising is not correct. Because as i said he might call and then we risk find ourselfs with J high OTT dont knowing what to do. So less variance approach is much preferable here till Hero gets reliable reads

You seem to be quite affected by the end result and the author himself. As far as i remember we set you up in the bulgarian community and the results showed that your analysis are subjective and based on whether you are sympathetic or not towards the author.

So try to analyze the hand more objectively!!!

Pills, pills...Fast...It's not such a thing in Hold em like "a lot of backdoor equity"...This looks dumb. And it's dumb..

KQ87, every spade + from time to time J and T will be clean outs as well. So it's not that bad

KQ87, every spade

This will give you a draw, not a made hand. What's why it is a backdoor equity..
Trying to embarrass me and defending yourself with nonsense talk is not good for you. Maybe I talk more directly than I should. But you are just a troll.

You are embarrassed enough. The idea is to point you a mistakes to correct it, so dont get defensive. Instead you should thank me

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
The problem i see with a raise OTF is we wont know what to do if V decides to call. We risk find ourself in a big pot with absolutely nothing against a potentially fishy player. Usually such a donks indiciate weakness or induce (rarely) or something between. Most of the time he'll have a little something. So to me calling seems more reasonable in this spot. Hero have a lot of backdoor equity as well.

As played i am gonna calldown till the end against such a sizes. We are most likely against a recreational player so weird stuff is possible.

Thanks for the confirmation
An interesting thing about this hand is that without the donk bet, opponent stood a good chance of taking it down OTT if he check/raised, since I would have bet 1/3 to 1/2 pot OTT, and would have probably folded to a major raise.

This hand also works for table image — even had I lost it wasn't much, and other players would see me do this and shake their heads.

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
That's not the case. You make such an assumptions without properly defining his donk. This is based on field tendencies. We cant be sure whether he fold or call. That's why raising is not correct. Because as i said he might call and then we risk find ourselfs with J high OTT dont knowing what to do. S

Very important skill in poker is making fast and correct adjustment to strategy against opponent.
Lets we what we have:
1. VPIP - 57% after ~50 hands - even LAG(30% vpip) will have only 0.00364% to have that high vpip after 50 hands - this stat alone confirms opponent is fish.
2. AF - this stat should be always interpreted with taking VPIP& PFR into consideration. For Nit 2.5 AF is normal as his range is very strong to begin with. However if you play 50%+ of hands then it clearly indicates that you are just bluffing and betting too many weak hands.
3. WonSD - ok , but what if he is running hot and on that small sample he was just hitting good hands? Then we see at low WonSD and it should be clear. Either he is super unlucky or just bluff too much.

To make assumptions like this we dont need thousands of hands as all stats are consistent.
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Why do you want to 'define his donkbet'? Based on what we have its clear he will have a lot of bluffs and weaker hands('a little something') and he will struggle to defend against raise. Its just pure math, Ax is not that big part of his range.

Take into consideration that his high aggression is reason for not calling wide because you should expect he will fire on turn again and you will have to fold J high on majority cards. JTs is just too weak to call - for me personally raise > fold > call.

Some people forget that one blind bet is also a "bet". Bet in HU spot and vs two players are two different things..AF should be not used by cash players imo. You should use Notecaddy for such a spots.
WonSD as well, this can mean so many things..You can't just take such a stats with 50 hands sample and make such an assumptions..Probably he is an aggro fish..And that's it...Probably his range OTF here is not strong. But for such an insane play you need a lot more. "A lot more" can be just one note. That's why the notes are so precious..

Thanks for the confirmation

Do you want that? A "confirmation"...Obv you are not the only one here. In this forum. Well played then. And GL..But ask your self, which is better for your improvement. A "confirmation' is good for your poker ego, I guess. Not for your improvement. Think about that..For just 2 min. If you really can.."If you really can" means the most of the people "can't", don't want to..

I have a philosophy exam. After one hour. Maybe that's why I am talking like that :f_biggrin:. Or maybe not..Maybe this is the ugly truth.

Why do you want to 'define his donkbet'?

I want to know how wide his donk bet before making such a high variance move like raising OTF with complete air. Yeah we assume, we kind expect that V is weak. But how weak? Weak could be very relative. He could do it with second or third pair, oesd, underpairs witch are highly unlikely to fold. What i am saying is that you are considering bluff without any idea of your FE.

His donk should consist a lot of air in order to consider it. VPIP is important but watch his actions as well and the board. From my expirience such a donks wont fold to a raise most of the time. This hand showed by villian is unlikely. Bluffing 3 streets with complete air tend to happen rarely

All in all. Before i consider such a bluff i want to be able to consider my FE. It's the first thing i do.

P.S. I dont see a plan of what are you going to do if V decides to call? What are going to do if you improve or dont improve OTT and so on?

I have a philosophy exam. After one hour. Maybe that's why I am talking like that . Or maybe not..Maybe this is the ugly truth.

Or maybe i should bring you back in time and remind you of how you reacted when your ego was wounded. When you were some sort of "coach-volunteer". When the admin send you couple "provocateurs". How you started to swear, spit and death threat them. Right Milen? And then what did you do? Outf of fury and rage you edited all of your educational stuff without even thinking about your fans. Yes you had some.

As for Vorpal he reacted quite politely compared to your reaction back then. So show some respect at least for his age. We are some sort of a young punks to him so i dont like the idea to sass him or discourage him no matter how bad it is.

So mind your behaviour first before educate the others

@EmiyaKiritsugu just to add... I do agree however that we might add small frequency of raising this donk bets. Because they would consist some air (tendencie field) and to avoid being predictible. But automatically rasing them is no good. Trust me. I've been through this before and big portion of the time you will eat a big portion tilt because of the idiot calling with some shitty hand.

What frequency you suggest? I am thinking now for 17%, but I am not sure. I must see the solver..Do you have any? Solver I mean. Or HUD..Nah? But pills, pills...Why you don't have pills?

I think the things are getting worse, mate..I think your Pokerstrategy adventure is in the end..Soon everyone will see what I saw month ago.