Originally posted by NoNameHypo
And sometime in PLO you can fold the nuts (you should sometime), because you don't have a "redraws"..I forgot about that..Sorry. Sick game..But I am not folding the nuts. Never!!!
The nuts are only the nuts until the next card.
You're quite right — I'm not folding the nuts, but you need to be able to abandon your hand (or at least slow down) when the killer card hits.
I am not talking about this. Lets say you have JT987, but it's "naked", and some nit go for a pot size raise. Or lets say you bet OTF, someone raise and an other 3bets..And some of them is a nit..Or let's say preflop , you open raise with AA72 off suit...three callers, pot size squeeze from very tight player..Or let's say 3bet and cold 4bet from a tight player. There are some situations in PlO, where you should fold with the nuts. I mean you have the best hand JT987, at this moment. But you fold...
Because there is "another nuts" here and probably better than your hand...If you hand is crappy, "naked", his hand is better for sure...
Originally posted by NoNameHypo
Ok, but who think like that in play? I mean when he play..At this exact moment. The clock is ticking...At the others tables some hands "pop up", flashes everywhere..You always will have some "backdoor" equity, this is Omaha-ha-ha..
You get used to it by repetition. But it is important. You should start trying to check out if you have that backdoorflushdraw, if you actually block the possible straightdraw onboard or if you have that mid-pair sidevalue. That´s why you should not play too many tables.
Originally posted by Kyyberi
In PLO backdoors are actually very important in our decision making.But is it a straight + redraw if we have KQJT on 987 board?
If redraw is defined as "made hand that has outs to improve to stronger made hand on next street", then set does have a redraw to a fullhouse/quads.
Spoiler
I know what redraw usually means, just trolling with you guys.
God. No it is just a straightdraw since wraps are straightdraws too. By the terms Tom Chamber he put any draw that can make a straightdraw (gutshot to 24-monster wrap) in the "straight-draw" category. Ugh. A set is only a redraw in the case it does not belong to the best made-hand category like on the monotone board I mentioned.
Missed to open your spoiler in time.. 
Originally posted by NoNameHypo
I am not talking about this. Lets say you have JT987, but it's "naked", and some nit go for a pot size raise. Or lets say you bet OTF, someone raise and an other 3bets..And some of them is a nit..Or let's say preflop , you open raise with AA72 off suit...three callers, pot size squeeze from very tight player..Or let's say 3bet and cold 4bet from a tight player. There are some situations in PlO, where you should fold with the nuts. I mean you have the best hand JT987, at this moment. But you fold...
Because there is "another nuts" here and probably better than your hand...If you hand is crappy, "naked", his hand is better for sure...
In shorthanded play you usually do not fold the nuts postflop also not folding AA preflop. I agree it can make sense especially when the SPR gets very high and your earlier aggression made sense but the range dynamics shifts heavily. But it is absolutely not a standard play to just fold the nuts right away.. You gotta go more into detail with the hand and I will be glad to discuss it. You understand I cannot give you a lump sum recommendation for folding the nuts. 
I now must defend this!? Ok, it's very rare, but I do actually folded the nuts.. Ok, straight obv, it can be straight only...Ok, FD possible as well, I don't have FD, only straight, and some passive guy go crazy..Calling station...He will do that only with the nuts. We can't be sure ofc, but it's extremely likely that he have the nuts...Ok, why to call here or go All in or whatever? Only a small part of my stack is invested here...I will pay a rake...I win almost nothing here, some 2-3 blinds..But what if he have straight + something else? What then? I mean , I can't explain, sorry, I just don't want to play in this spot..."The nuts"...Fck the nuts...I am talking for micro, maybe PL5 or PL10...Sometime I do play PLO...For fun..Not only for "fun"..I don't know, then I am on tilt, or drunk...A little "break"
About the AA...Yes, I did fold AA as well. Let's say I know some guy, he 3bet only with AA..i mean I saw only Aa from him, I did use simple HUD for PLO in the past, now no HUD, but it's so obv that he is 3betting only AA..I can be wrong ofc...I open raise from UTG, pot size, he 3bet pot size and I have some crappy AA , I don't know, let's say A♦:A♥:6♠:2♣:, something like that, I mean "really crappy"...Ok, what to do here? Call, 4bet? Fck this, mate. Is this a mistake? Ok, I don't care... , I don't want to be in this spot...
I think AAxx is very overrated in Omaha..By "the theory"...Ok, you have the equity pre flop, the best equity..But this is a pot limit game, you can't just shove pre. And the people , they know exactly what you have. If you have some crappy AA it's like ...your hand is face up, they will play exactly vs that. They will play perfectly..You are "blind", but they "see" your hand...
Hey, what´s going on here? Wow.
Just wanted to know how to play that hand but well, why not .... 
AA should be valued, as half of our profits in the long run comes from AAxx hands. If I remember right, I have folded AA preflop 3 times, so it isn't that common. Of course there are situations where you know there's AA and something else for opponents and you have the lowest equity, but there is also so much chips in pot that you have to go with it.
For 100bb game, I have never folded nuts postflop and neither should anyone. Yes, there are spots where you could be making -EV shoves with nuts, but versus their ranges it rarely is. And when you start to make hero folds with nuts you probably end up making more bad folds than good folds.
P.S. KQJT on 987 flop is a nut straight. With a redraw to better straight.
I agree you should not have this in your "game plan". It's extremely rare, which means "irrelevant" in a long run. I think this is part from this "freerolling" thing..What is "freeroll" in PlO? exactly this, I think, you both have a straight, but someone have redraws...Those off suit rundowns are very "dangerous" in PLO. But the people like them very much..I saw in YouTube, they like those hands even from early positions, I mean hand like T987 or JT98..The coaches...But then I used Pokerprotools, I saw that the rank for this hand is very low...The theory don't "like them"..I even heard some coach, he said "You can play JT98 from UTG, but you should be capable of avoiding freeroling". How to avoid this? If we never fold with the nuts? It's easy to say "you should avoid this". But how? Talking with the stars maybe...Sixth sense...
About this "half of our profits in the long run comes from AAxx hands", I think, even then, some of the AAxx hands can be -EV. Or borderline..Or with very small profit. Most of the profit comes from the good AAxx, isn't it? Crappy AAxx still can have positive profit, because of the blocking effect. But what about the 3bet? I think big part of our profit comes from "cracking" AAxx...I prefer to be with JT98ds vs AA 3bet, instead of 3beting crappy AAxx vs JT98ds..
even in NL you can fold with the nuts sometime...Lets say in small pot K♥:Q♥:J♠:T♠:, someone shove OTT and you have A♣:Q♣:, what then? Call?..
I mean if some player 3bet with crappy AAxx and I have JT98ds, postflop he can't really fold. If the flop or turn are not very ugly. If he decide to fold without good reason, only because I am raising, then he will loose money in a long run. Because some of the players are very aggro...He is the victim here, 3beting vs me, not I...He is the victim :f_biggrin:..the fish...I know his range, possible range..He don't know mine...It is very hard for me to make a mistake, but very easy for him. And mistakes do happen , all the time...
But what if some NL player 3bet only with AA and KK and I have JTs? I will fold...I will not hit the flop often enough..To continue..profitably..Yes, AA are overrated in PLO. That's why you can play this game profitably. I think without this profit from calling vs AAxx 3bet, you can't beat the game at PL10 fast. And without a HUD. No way...You will lose with AAxx so many times...But you still can beat NL10 fast, the profit from AA is at least 2000/100, even without a HUD..I had an argue in another very popular forum (way more popular than this) and it's like 20 people was arguing that you can't beat Zoom NL10, it's impossible. I was alone, I can't give a graph right now, for some reasons. And in the end, I took the ban and that's it. But when I played this, I had 12/100 win rate. But what about Zoom PL10? If you say here , @Kyyberi, that you can beat Zoom PL10, no one will believe you. I mean no one...And you have a HUD there...Why is this? Because the people over play with AAxx, that's why. Maybe it's too much, but that is my opinion. No one can beat fast PL10, because of this. Because of this crappy AAxx..
Originally posted by Kyyberi
P.S. KQJT on 987 flop is a nut straight. With a redraw to better straight.
My mistake yes as you said it is a redraw then.
But this is a pot limit game, you can't just shove pre
Yes, Solver calls AAxx sometimes pre to balance its ranges. But it is a more tiny portion from a few position and it is actually never folding AAxx pre. AAxx in PLO do not preserve their handstrength over multiple streets like in NLHE since in PLO all handstrengths lie more together but it is still the most profitable 2-card combination in PLO.
even in NL you can fold with the nuts sometime...Lets say in small pot K♥: Q♥: J♠: T♠: , someone shove OTT and you have A♣: Q♣: , what then? Call?..
Yes usually you have to call not just because of odds. The hand in PLO would also belong into top-tier ranges which have to stack-off in terms of equity since this double-two-toned board allows for a lot of semi-bluffs. You have to stack-off against most nut-straight variants and you are flipping against sth like set+flushdraw which also makes sense to shove from villains perspective. I mean everything depends on the situation you might fold vs raise if you are oop with a high SPR let´s say. In PLO you have to think more in terms of equity in playability rather than in handstrength matchups.
It's hard for me to write fast, sorry..It will be with many mistakes...And more annoying..For this NL hand KQJT board..., I did call, few times , everytime Ace + FD. I lost one time , I think...No more call...I don't care about the theory..That much..You have to pay the rake as well, did you forget about this!?
Even crappy AA is very profitable.
Can be...I can't show nothing, but even if I can what to show. That I am losing with AAxx...This will be because I am weak...I lot of this profit must come from OR and folds, 3bet and folds...Blockers...And stack off pre ofc...But you pray for this, when you 3bet with AAxx, do you? We all do..."Please, God, let's be 4bet this time"...NL players do not pray for 4bet, when they are with AA...Will be cool, but still they do not pray for this :f_biggrin:..I am pretty sure all of us are happy, when we see fold vs our Cbet in 3bet pot (Aa in PLO)..You may not say it, but this is the truth..No one will say it...Ofc...
There is also profit coming from flopping a K♠:7♦:5♣: flop double-barreling pot with the AAxx overpair. You cannot relying on getting it in pre, that happens way more rarely. The way you max out your profits is expanding your reraising ranges in a way that hit flops that are less favourable for dry AAxx and avoid bad frequencies like cbetting on boards that favour the player ip.
Most people on lower stakes tend to underfold against 3-bets.
I think you should not 3bet with crappy AAxx...You can 3bet with some other hand and still play "with AAxx". You "image" is AAxx, the people see your 3bet in that way...That means if you 3bet with crappy AAxx, you hand is face up. This can't be good. I already said that. But by theory you should 3bet always with AA, because of the equity preflop...No way I am playing like that, what can be the reason to have crappy AAxx in your range for 3bet? I mean as default..Can be resteal, can be vs some maniac, calling station, OK..But vs random UTG I will not do that..IP, OOP, whatever...Can be good with short stack. Will be good for sure...This is my opinion, it's not some "strategy"...At least known one, but Im not the only one. I saw some discussion and one guy was talking like that. Like me...And all the others was against him. I passed...No honor in this :f_biggrin:, but I was tired of this sh1t...
Ok, if the Zoom PL10 is "unbeatable" for almost everyone, that means if someone can beat PL10 fast, this will be "luck" or "unconventional play". Is this "logical"? What do you people think :f_biggrin:?
This words will have "value" only if I start to play Zoom PL10 and achieve good sample and profit. I realize that...That's the problem. You must show something. Well, I can do that for 10 min, i can make a graph, how much profit you want to see? But this will be a lie...And also many graphs are lie. Most of them..
even then very few people will believe for PLO fast...
maybe we should open another topic.."Is PLO fast beatable"...I think the theory can't "beat" PLO fast...You can use all the standard moves, using balance, GTO or I don't know, whatever "standard", "theoretical" play and you can't beat the recreational players. You can't make profit, the profit will be for the room (rake)...You can, if you have luck...
All the pro players, they find some very weak loose-passive field, good rakeback, they have very advanced HUD, they buy hand history and that's it...They don't care about "the theory". That much...Why should care? The theory can't handle it...
Please open the thread and I am happy to post there.
What comes to AA, at low small stakes I 3bet 100% of my AA pre with 100bb stacks. And even my crappy AA are making good profit. But it's deceiving, we often shove our stacks to make 5-10bb EV in the long run. And when called, we lose more often than we win. But even 5bb EV is 500b/100 winrate with crappy AA.
You have the initiative OTF ...Some of the 3bets are "resteal"...i can use another arguments, you use HUD, you play vs short stacks sometime and etc...This can't be discussion. This guy @ Mascherano95 write a lot of things, for that i am grateful , he said "why this, why that"..Ok, I answered..But this will be an argue. Very soon..Or ignoring..Let's say "I am wrong" and that's it..ennd..
BTw..At the end. I can't resist. Phil Galfond do not 3bet with crappy AAxx vs early positions 100bb deep (online). Calling from SB vs HJ...Well, I am not crazy ..Also the rake is low there..But yeah, the players are better...But we can say the same things about calling..But if some top pro can do that, then I have the right to do it as well. It is not wrong
Originally posted by Kyyberi
As it's PLO2, I would happily shove. Preflop is a fold as Ghaleon mentioned.
to widen up the discussion a bit more 
plo trainer would call here in normal sim, as well in gg sim with preflop rake. giving it -0,93bb ev, which might be at the boarderline threshhold, but i think its okish to call, being last to act.
as played if sb really pot folds and co is unknown, being the pfr, with openrange and possible carddeductions given the pot fold action, think with middleset we still doing ok and will have the needed equity of the big pot longterm as we wont always just face jjs of course.
