+++Q&A with Jared Tendler!!+++

Originally posted by Dawidas888
Hi Jared,

To begin with, I loved reading the Mental Game of Poker book as it appeared that I am a bigger mental game fish than I thought. It have me a great confidence boost to tackle my issues which don't appear as scary and unique anymore.

I wonder if you could have a look at my mental hand history as I am not sure if my understanding of 'why the logic is flawed' and 'why is the correction correct' good.

MISTAKE TILT
1. Describe the problem.
I go on tilt when I make a bad play which I didn’t carefully think through or where I ignore stats that are too low for a good sample but which would change my decision.

2. Why does it make logical sense that you would react, think, or feel that way?
Because I think that only bad players make mistakes and good players don’t.

3. Why is that logic flawed?
I ignore the reality that one cannot account for all the facts in a limited time period. In essence I believe that the more I learn the fewer mistakes I will make.

4. What is the correct way to handle the situation?
Regardless of how much I learn, mistakes will always happen because when I learn I start noticing mistakes where I didn’t notice them before. Therefore, the better I play the more marginal spots I will get myself into. The bigger mistake is letting one turn into more.

5. Why is that correction correct?
Poker is the game of incomplete information so mistakes are bound to happen as I will never have all the information. Therefore, when I make a mistake there is nothing else I can do about it so I should keep my focus on what I can do, which is play the next hand well.

Thanks again for writing such a great book!
David

Hi David!

Thanks for the good words about the book.

I like your answers for steps 3-5. It's been a while since you first wrote about it, and I'm wondering if you solved it? What's the results been for you in handling mistakes since - that's the ultimate measure of how well you did - regardless of what my opinion may be. If you haven't solved it to the degree that you would have liked. It may meant that there were additional layers of the problem that were not known at the time you wrote this MHH. Post some more details about what you found and I'll give you some additional feedback.

All the best!
Jared

Originally posted by xxInspectorxx
Hi Jared!

Apologies if I am bothering with a question adressed in your books. I am looking to order them soon but atm am still in a middle of another book that has some answers but as its not targetted to pokerplayers its more general.

As I have grew "older" and have more hands played than 3 yrs ago when I started i have gotten worse in few mental things. Due to easily tilting on cashgames lately I have finally understood that they are not for me. Especially "dangerous" are the static tables as I get personal too easy. Have played all micro limits in y "career" from NL2 to NL50 and back again. My hectic life nd small children prevented me to get into stt/mtt gaming thus played cash. Now with kids not waking up during my grinds etc intereference am now able to finally tackle the tournament poker i have always fancies...just a small intro..so to the subject.

I have started grinding the Double or Nothing STT format and am playin on $2.2 and doing great on the superturbos even though am runnin nicely inder EV for almost 800 games now since I started the grind. And the more i play thee deeper the gap grows..but even that doesn't concern me as it just prooving am playing well and just run bad against lucky fish. Thanks to my rakeback I am moving up nicely even during the EV downswing. But here is the problem. Since I soon realised that the DoN format is something I really like and seem to have understood I got the "heureka" feeling. This is it these are the games I like these are the games I will master and push in 100% effort like I once used for cashgames. So I did a plan. Put it on paper and looking to edit it as more goals etc coöe in and as i can make mor short term goals.

So I am super motivated I do lot of mental studying and meditating. This format is not tilting me at all. i think that is a problem? I dont mind suckouts s long as I have played correctly I don't mind cold deck it always has become warm after some stretch of games. Going on 100 games slow downhill or 400 games be rollercoast as it is as long as i play correctly the upswing will come where my game moves get the needed justice in mathematical aspect. So the games are not suffering BUT my plan is to move to $5.5 games next month with the RB coming in. And the problem kicks in.

I have found a new mental block on my game. Its GREED. My initiallan is to use enough agressive but still strict brm. 50-30. And I will be looking at around 60 to even 70 BI roll for $5.5. But then the fear called GREED kicks in. Greed is a manifestation of the fear of loosing. So you turn greedy you want to just suck in the ezmoney instead stepping outside the comfortzone where u are beating the games. I "fear" for my preciouss graph more than the monetary thing. I have set strict rules to follow and they are easy to follow but still I am feeling greedy to suck in the moneys from the limit currently beating. Am also afraid i will hit the instant doomswitch after moving up. Not the actual EV downswings and suckouts but just bad run to begin wiith loosing the 20BI "shot" faster than ever then having to grind up again. One of the highly valued coach in here has put up a comparison of graphs on his site where he shows same player making huge profits big graphs tjat then end up near BE or are jusr crazy swingy..then same players graph steadily moving up up up winning more in the end as its just filtered by the level of stakes the player in question beats with ease.

The craziest thing is that am quite comfortable in moving up but still in the back of my head I am afraid of the start next month. If someone would promise me 10 bi up during the first 100 games. I would have no problem as the swings are not too insane on the format. So any simple ways to battle greed? My strict written on paper plan is ez to follow but beimg successful on my current level is turning me greedy and its slowing my progress as a pokerplayer as better villains will make me push harder to get myself better than them slowing my bankroll increase eventually too. So as long as i don't get rid of the greed i wont be able to play my A+ game.

P.S. This is not scared money syndrome as the roll for $5 is easily reloaded. I just wanted to get thru all the levels and get a good learning experience thru the stakes.

Thanks in advance.. Also as I suspect you have this covered in your books so just tell me to get them but if you could give me a quick hint on how to tackle this greed problem

Hi!!

Interesting situation. I'll give you some feedback based on what I see, and feel free to post more if things have changed significantly since you wrote.

Problem makes sense to me, and these kinds of mental game problems are precisely why accomplishing goals are harder in practice than a well laid plan can make them seem. I like your strategy of moving up steadily for the learning experience - in the long-term I think that's how you'll have the kind of success that you want. However, while you say that's what you want consciously, I think the problem is that deep down you want results instantly so you have instant proof that you're doing well. That would ease your fears and keep you comfortable. The question is why does this fear exist in the first place? I suspect there is an underlying confidence issue. I'm not exactly sure what it may be, but thinking about it, what comes to mind? If you have taken a look at TMGP, and read Chapter 8, what resonated with you? Any of the illusions that I mention apply to you?

All the best!
Jared

Originally posted by vincenTTTaa
hey jared, can you post some well written mental handhistories? or how they should look like? wished there were more in your book.

This is a good suggestion. I don't have any right now, but I'm happy to give you feedback on one of yours if you'd like me to.

Hi Jared, first of all let me tell you that i ve read your first book and now im reading the second one in my own rhythm, so I can identify most of the causes of tilt , motivation and confidence problems. But here is my big problem:
I ve been playing NL5 and NL10 for 2 years, im always planning how many hands I will play, at least the first days I play a decent volume, and dont look the cashier, but that behaviour remains only when I know im winning, when I stack other players.

But when I get stacked many times in a row i dont change the way im playing or get tilted

...I start thinking how much time it will take to win again those stacks....
And think the fact that I might lose more in the way of playing the volume of hands established increases my fear of playing and losing in that long period of time.

Also I get desesperated when I think how long will be my way in the end, losing and winning back are not in my plan. So, I stop playing because of this fear of playing that long and losing, especially NL10 where there are my worst results.

Im always procastinating, with fear of a long and full of variance way, that changes my way of seeing the game, even when I start with the best approach of not being results oriented and trying always to improve.

What can I do? Could I show my A game in during long periods of time, one day?

I hope you can help me Jared this frustration dont let me become the poker player I want to be

Hi, Jared

I have one BIG mental problem with my game that I cannot get through and it is driving me nuts.

It is that I run extremely bad at high limit games whenever I take shots and run extremely good at lower limits so I feel that it is not right. Variance should take care of these but it can take me years to get those hands and It can be that I still am a big looser beacause of variance. For example I have played 10k hand at higher limits this year (160k hands total) and I have run both bigger limit games extremely bad and they have eaten a 1/4 of my years winnings.

This month I played 20k hand my normal stakes and won a lot what it comes to bb/100 but then I opened good high stakes games and lost 3/4 of my months winnings in just 700 hands. It feels like my work has been for nothing and I cannot play for days because I am so pissed. My confidence level is crushed and I dont feel like playing lower stakes games and even my normal stakes because they dont feel anything and I feel I dont even want to win in these lower stakes games because they dont cover my losses in big games.

I know that there is not such thing as patterns with these thing but it kind a has. When I win a lot I usually lose a lot soon. how can I start playing my normal stakes again after I loose big time with high stakes. It takes me time to recover and I dont want to lose those days. Its the absolute worst feeling I have ever had to encounter. Injustice at best. I play highest limit of my game so the money lost is I quess my biggest concern. I have read your first book but it has been a while.

Originally posted by JJKid15
Hi Jared, first of all let me tell you that i ve read your first book and now im reading the second one in my own rhythm, so I can identify most of the causes of tilt , motivation and confidence problems. But here is my big problem:
I ve been playing NL5 and NL10 for 2 years, im always planning how many hands I will play, at least the first days I play a decent volume, and dont look the cashier, but that behaviour remains only when I know im winning, when I stack other players.

But when I get stacked many times in a row i dont change the way im playing or get tilted

...I start thinking how much time it will take to win again those stacks....
And think the fact that I might lose more in the way of playing the volume of hands established increases my fear of playing and losing in that long period of time.

Also I get desesperated when I think how long will be my way in the end, losing and winning back are not in my plan. So, I stop playing because of this fear of playing that long and losing, especially NL10 where there are my worst results.

Im always procastinating, with fear of a long and full of variance way, that changes my way of seeing the game, even when I start with the best approach of not being results oriented and trying always to improve.

What can I do? Could I show my A game in during long periods of time, one day?

I hope you can help me Jared this frustration dont let me become the poker player I want to be

Hi,

I hope I can help you too!

As with any problem, the key is being able to identify the underlying cause, but I'm also curious about your goals as they will help me to better understand what you're looking to accomplish in the game.

The problem to me, seems like you're far too results-oriented. Are you able to determine that you're playing a winning style of poker? To suggest that you know your winning because your stacking others, makes me worried that you're overestimating the importance of those hands in your overall winrate. Are these all hands that you're winning because you've gotten your money in ahead? Or does it matter if you suck out and still win?

I feel like I need some more information before I can give you a good answer:

Are you a winning player at these stakes? What are your goals in poker over the short-term and long-term? You mentioned being able to identify tilt and other mental game problems, does this mean you're also able to fix them?

Post some more and let's see what we can do to solve this!

Originally posted by sensei77
Hi, Jared

I have one BIG mental problem with my game that I cannot get through and it is driving me nuts.

It is that I run extremely bad at high limit games whenever I take shots and run extremely good at lower limits so I feel that it is not right. Variance should take care of these but it can take me years to get those hands and It can be that I still am a big looser beacause of variance. For example I have played 10k hand at higher limits this year (160k hands total) and I have run both bigger limit games extremely bad and they have eaten a 1/4 of my years winnings.

This month I played 20k hand my normal stakes and won a lot what it comes to bb/100 but then I opened good high stakes games and lost 3/4 of my months winnings in just 700 hands. It feels like my work has been for nothing and I cannot play for days because I am so pissed. My confidence level is crushed and I dont feel like playing lower stakes games and even my normal stakes because they dont feel anything and I feel I dont even want to win in these lower stakes games because they dont cover my losses in big games.

I know that there is not such thing as patterns with these thing but it kind a has. When I win a lot I usually lose a lot soon. how can I start playing my normal stakes again after I loose big time with high stakes. It takes me time to recover and I dont want to lose those days. Its the absolute worst feeling I have ever had to encounter. Injustice at best. I play highest limit of my game so the money lost is I quess my biggest concern. I have read your first book but it has been a while.

Hey Sensei,

I get how frustrating this would be - and before I give you an answer, I want to know a few things, including your strategy in playing the higher stakes games. How many BI's do you bring? Do you have a stop/loss? Are you certain that you're playing well and have an edge in these games?

The main reason I'm asking these questions, is that a lot of players move up somewhat randomly and simply by having a clearer strategy, they're able to move back and forth between stakes easier because they've accepted the potential losses playing higher ahead of time. Losing obviously isn't the goal, but knowing ahead of time that their losses are limited and limited to an amount that won't affect them too much, not only makes them play better at higher stakes, but also recover faster from losing.

Beyond that, it does seem that Injustice is amplifying your anger when losing. But I don't feel like that's the real issue here - what are you goals in poker? How are these losses affecting your pursuit of them? The reason I ask, is that I'm wondering if variance at higher stakes is affecting either your motivation or confidence that you can achieve your long-term goals in poker - so, when you lose, you feel dispair/anger/fear about your long-term success. (Just a hunch, which I admit could easily be wrong). Either way, post more and we'll get to the bottom of this.

Originally posted by JaredTendler

Originally posted by sensei77
Hi, Jared

I have one BIG mental problem with my game that I cannot get through and it is driving me nuts.

It is that I run extremely bad at high limit games whenever I take shots and run extremely good at lower limits so I feel that it is not right. Variance should take care of these but it can take me years to get those hands and It can be that I still am a big looser beacause of variance. For example I have played 10k hand at higher limits this year (160k hands total) and I have run both bigger limit games extremely bad and they have eaten a 1/4 of my years winnings.

This month I played 20k hand my normal stakes and won a lot what it comes to bb/100 but then I opened good high stakes games and lost 3/4 of my months winnings in just 700 hands. It feels like my work has been for nothing and I cannot play for days because I am so pissed. My confidence level is crushed and I dont feel like playing lower stakes games and even my normal stakes because they dont feel anything and I feel I dont even want to win in these lower stakes games because they dont cover my losses in big games.

I know that there is not such thing as patterns with these thing but it kind a has. When I win a lot I usually lose a lot soon. how can I start playing my normal stakes again after I loose big time with high stakes. It takes me time to recover and I dont want to lose those days. Its the absolute worst feeling I have ever had to encounter. Injustice at best. I play highest limit of my game so the money lost is I quess my biggest concern. I have read your first book but it has been a while.

Hey Sensei,

I get how frustrating this would be - and before I give you an answer, I want to know a few things, including your strategy in playing the higher stakes games. How many BI's do you bring? Do you have a stop/loss? Are you certain that you're playing well and have an edge in these games?

I might play little tighter/less variance play than usually according to my stats in high stakes games but that should affect so much. Big stakes games are mostly on stars where playerpool is most skilled and I am not very sure which my winrate is there since most of my hands there have been here after my humangous early year upswing on other sites so not sure if it variance or just outskill. I can say that bad run has been a big factor though. At the moment I am little over breakeven of all games on stars. I dont have stoploss until bad run pisses me off and I get off tables.

The main reason I'm asking these questions, is that a lot of players move up somewhat randomly and simply by having a clearer strategy, they're able to move back and forth between stakes easier because they've accepted the potential losses playing higher ahead of time. Losing obviously isn't the goal, but knowing ahead of time that their losses are limited and limited to an amount that won't affect them too much, not only makes them play better at higher stakes, but also recover faster from losing.

Maybe stop/loss would be good strategy so it wouldnt ruin my month work at one shot. My mental block with the stakes prevents me playing lower stakes than usually too because I feel that if I win at those stakes It is off my normal stakes wins and so fort. I hate stake variance it so much. This month I noticed that I piss off more easily on higher stakes games because I concentrate more on the run on those.

I have been trying to say my self that all stakes will be leveled at the end by variance and I know my thinking is stupid.

Beyond that, it does seem that Injustice is amplifying your anger when losing. But I don't feel like that's the real issue here - what are you goals in poker? How are these losses affecting your pursuit of them? The reason I ask, is that I'm wondering if variance at higher stakes is affecting either your motivation or confidence that you can achieve your long-term goals in poker - so, when you lose, you feel dispair/anger/fear about your long-term success. (Just a hunch, which I admit could easily be wrong). Either way, post more and we'll get to the bottom of this.

I had a goal of money won in middle of year until end of the year which ruined catastofically because of bad run at high stakes games and I set a new money won goal after that which I dont think is gonna happen because of stake variance and breakeven run/play. It has made me work my game off which is good. This month I just try to play my best and not worry so much of the results but the "stakedevil" is still inside me. All I want is to get off the additional frustration and thinking power lost in thinking different stakes and their wins. Its off my concentration to poker.

Hi Jared, I've bought your two books and while reading the second one, I realized I still had a lot of work to do and should eliminate tilt/fear/confidence/motivation problems before trying to work on those other aspects of my game.

I made a MHH for revenge tilt and I'd like you to review it.

Revenge tilt
1) Describe the problem.

I get frustrated facing some actions from my opponents which cause me to want revenge. I will try to force plays against those same opponents, or make unprofitable bluffs or calls because I seek that revenge.

More specifically, when I face constant aggression from someone (3betting, cbetting, raising, etc), I lose my cool if I’m not winning.

When a certain player wins money against me over a certain number of hands, I want to regain what I lost to them, especially if they won in an unconventional way (making a hero call against my bluff for example).

I will also feel really revengeful when I feel outplayed and don’t know how to react to certain actions.

I want revenge when people do bad plays and win, which make them think that they played well or are better than me when it’s not the case (for example when someone calls my bluff on the river and is right, even if his call is -EV against my range), I will want revenge against them.

2) Explain why it makes logical sense to think, feel, react, or play that way.

I react that way because I want to prove to myself and my opponent that I’m the one in control. I will force plays to win because I want to rectify the situation right away to let them know I’m the better player, and also to prove it to myself.

I also want them to feel the pain of losing instead of me, since I think that they want me to feel this way when they play aggressively and try to annoy me in different spots.

When I feel like I’m getting outplayed, I get revengeful as my thought of being better than the opponent takes a hit, and I protect my weaknesses this way.

I want to show that I’m the best and control seems like the thing I’m reaching for.

3) Figure out why the logic in step 2 is flawed.

You can’t control someone’s play, you can only control your decisions. Forcing plays shouldn’t be part of my strategy as when I do, I decrease my winrate and the opposite of what I’m trying to show them (that I’m the best player) happens. To be the best, I need to keep playing well and it will show in the long run.

I can’t control what other people will do against me when I play, my only focus should be on designing a correct strategy to counter what they’re doing. If they use constant aggression against me, there’s a good response play associated with that, and I just need to apply it or learn it if I don’t.

When I don’t know how to react to a play, being mad at the other player just protects my weakness, which should be the last thing I want since it prevents me from improving.

4) Come up with a correction to that flawed logic.

I cannot control how people are playing against me, the only thing I can control is the decisions I make and the way I handle my emotions.

When I feel like I’m getting outplayed or I don’t know what the correct play should be in a spot that frustrates me, I should take note of this spot and then work on that at the end of my session to get better and also avoid the future frustration that will happen again in the future if I don’t fix that hole.

5) Ask yourself why the correction you came up with will work.

I can only control my side of play, trying to control my opponent’s play will only result in me not being able to make my decisions as well as I can when I put all my focus on it. When frustration happens, it diminishes my ability to think clearly, so that should be the last thing that I’d want to happen. Focusing on my decisions only is the best route I can take.

People will play in different ways in order to win money at the table, the only thing I can do is find the proper counter adjustment to exploit the way they play. When I don’t know how to react to a certain play, taking a note and working on that area of my game will help me get better faster and improving everyday.

Thanks a lot and I really appreciate your help.

I think im able to determine most of the times when I played well, my goals? Reach HighStakes in the long term and become a NL100 reg in middle term, and in the short term beat NL10 and NL25.

I ve just shooted NL25, but I lose almost 10 BI, I feel terrible, so I dont know if Im going to quit poker , continue in NL25 or move down to NL10.

Im a complete disaster, Im tired of playing with that approach to the game of being results oriented, I ve tried again and again to only play my best but I cant, there is a plan or something I can do to forget Im playing for real money and only focus on becoming the best player ever??.

Maybe I gonna try play NL10, I wont care about volume, no intentions of winning money only to play my best and return NL25 with the same plan, but I feel like a turtle I cannot move up quickly, and always replanting for more than 2 years

What would you recommend Jared??

Hello Jared,

Just purchased Mental Game of poker 2. I'm sure it will be as instructive and elevating as the first.

Have begun playing more seriously off late, devoting more time to study and analysis. My game is the 45man sngmtt. I noticed something about my game, which I would like your opinion on.

While this could easily be confirmation bias, I notice that my biggest upswings come when I just move up stakes. I'm a nit by BRM, so anything less than a 80BI seems like a 'shot' to me. I noticed when I first moved to the 3.5's, my upswing was much larger than my total profits before that. Was the same when I had first moved to the 1.5's. My winnings seem to peter out afterwards, and become only slightly winning/breakeven.

Am I reading too much into this? Or is the increased anxiety at the higher levels making me play better, after which I tend to get bored? And should I use this knowledge to become more aggressive in my bankroll management?

Thanks a lot in advance, for all your help!
AB

Add:
Utilized some concepts from MGP2 on a 10k run that i completed last night. While I am by no means unfit, running is not my thing. I set myself a goal of completing the race without stopping, and the ideas of injecting logic and injecting inspiration help when i was 'running bad'. The 2nd wind is a wonderful thing!

Regarding the cause of my anger, or the flaws that cause me to tilt, is it possible that they're the same for different types of tilt?

I did a mental HH for running bad tilt, and actually some of that stuff might go into hate-losing tilt, entitlement tilt or desperation tilt.

For example, when I'm losing, I start playing -EV hands in some spots because I want to win my money back. I think it could go into desperation tilt, hate-losing tilt or running bad tilt.

Does that make sense? And if it does, is it important or should I just focus on eliminating those flaws in my unconscious?

Thanks a lot for your help Jared.

Hi Jared,

Recently I started a regular job (wish I grinded more when I didn't have the job yet) and I kind of have trouble to get my hours in. I wonder how you would do it. I arrive at home around 5 pm, and after that I pretty much have till 9.30 pm to cook, eat and grind. I notice that when I don't make plans I just end up playing with my phone, watching some tv and messing it up since I feel a bit tired to play. That said, even though I am a bit tired, I still have to push it since otherwise I won't get in any volume. It is ridiculous because when I didn't have a job yet I felt like there was too much pressure to grind, and now that I have a job I feel there is no need. I just make excuses and excuses. So I look for a way to push myself a bit more, or if possible a way to get the joy back of poker and treating it as a game again I want to get good at like in the old days when I just started.

Thanks

Originally posted by Insilicio
I kind of have trouble to get my hours in. I wonder how you would do it. I arrive at home around 5 pm, and after that I pretty much have till 9.30 pm to cook, eat and grind. I notice that when I don't make plans I just end up playing with my phone, watching some tv and messing it up since I feel a bit tired to play.

Hi, Insilicio
Welcome to the PokerStrategy.com forums!

It has been said that you can never find the time to do what you want.

It is true.

You can make the time, or take the time, but it never just happens.

The only way to work this is to mark off an amount of time each day for each activity.

Be flexible though. It is OK to forego a day of poker to do something else you want to do.

Be aware though that if you find yourself making excuses why you didn't play poker that day, it is possible that you are tilted a bit.

Cheers,
--VS

Hello Jared. I play poker for living for the last 6 years. My question for you is in regards to pre-session warm up. I used to do it on a piece of paper and then after reading your book I made an Excel file in Google docs. Now there is a PokerWarmUp.com website offering a step-by-step routine which poker players can create by themselves. And I am wondering what's your opinion on this? is this a nice way to perform a Warm Up? Anything to add or remove? thanks in advance.

Hi. Im playing poker for about 2 weeks only and what wold be the best for me to improve my self mentaly. Becose my motivation to the poker is to show others that i can reach something in my life and i can be rich and famous.

Hey LyToLV,

One piece of advice I can give is to break your goal down into smaller chunks. It's awesome to have such an ambitious goal but it is advisable to have small marker points along the way.

So set short term and medium term goals as well to help keep you on track to that final ambition.

Have fun

Laz

dthats my fainal goal but firstofall i want to learn how to play and i knowe its will gona teik a time and not rushing eniver. First goll is hawe inaf insperionc to sit on money tabels and dont lose all money alll the time but win somtehing back. After that is to get inaf insperionc to be independont from money and dont need to work no more. ♦

Hey LyToLV,

What games and limits are you playing? We should be able to help you with some nice learning material to get you on your way.

Cheers

Laz

Im nowe playing moer freerols becosi it not coust my nothing but try out some cash games as well but less... I dont want to jump high and get down fast thats why wen im stil learning i will gona play freerols and when i will gona feal inof confident i will gona play SAG games and tournaments. Can U sugest what i need to knowe more and which books i need to read becose i want to order a books but not shore wich ones are better. And im still reading all basics and loking on my hands on sidekick program.