Hi Shade
Inchworm is mentioned again in the book, but not in great detail. The aim really, as it was in our 'foundation' section is to try and apply it to everything in the book and in your game as a template. So I guess whenever you read another section think of it in terms of inch worm (and adult learning model, and process model - the three foundational subjects).
Also, there is plenty in the rest of the book about studying and fundamental flaws in learning on a broader scale.
Originally posted by IngridN
Originally posted by jbpatzer
Can you release your book for Kindle a.s.a.p. please? I only read stuff on my Kindle now. Paper is just sooooooo 20th century.Oh my gosh, jbpatzer are you serious?
I am always serious.
Hello,
I also beg for advice. I don´t like loosing like everyone else, have also some smaller problems with tilt and stuff, however I have much bigger problems with winning. If i win some bigger amount of bi´s than I expected I begin to have big problems to continue playing, I think it´s because I don´t want to spoil my mood and also want to quit that day so I have feeling that it was successful day. I think I don´t even play my A-game when I am winning a lot. I was thinking of setting some play schedule so I would play regardless of results or setting some very very tight stop loss limit after session like this however I would really like to get rid of this problem cause its preventing me from putting in volume.... (I am winning player on my limit so playing is definitely +EV.)
I would also like to ask if one can become a great poker player without love to gambling, cause I think I don´t have it and somehow I consider it to be sort of leak, also its probably partly reason of my problem,
Thanks a lot for answer....
Is Jared still answering questions?
Will/do you offer group coaching? Or possibly seminars which cover various topics. I think it would be a good option to maybe prepare a presintation and then a Q and A session towards the end from the people in the coaching/seminar.
Originally posted by TobyCS
Is Jared still answering questions?Will/do you offer group coaching? Or possibly seminars which cover various topics. I think it would be a good option to maybe prepare a presintation and then a Q and A session towards the end from the people in the coaching/seminar.
http://jaredtendlerpoker.com/coaching/
here you go,mr.toby
i kinda had the same question
Yes Jared will be back, he just had a long weekend, I think he will be happy to keep this thread going as long as there is interest, so keep the questions coming guys.
Originally posted by Fongie
Hi!Do you advice any particular pre-game routines for most players?
Hi!
This is a very basic/standard pre-game routine:
1) Set clear goals that are important for that player. Such as, playing for a certain amount of time, staying focused for the entire time playing, to correct common poker mistakes, to aggressively spot the early signs of tilt and avoid making mistakes, focus more on quality decisions than on results, etc.
2) Review common poker and/or mental game mistakes, so they are fresh in the players mind, and more likely to avoid/correct them.
3) Shut-down all other distractions, or things that can potentially cause distraction.
4) Few deep breaths, and then put everything you have into playing as best as you possibly can on that day.
Originally posted by FongieDo you think meditation is helpful for most people's poker mindset?
I do think meditation can be helpful, but I wouldn't say for most players. Meditation, in my mind is important for building awareness/recognition, building emotional/mental control, and for keeping the mind clear. There are other ways to accomplish these benefits - so I would say to players who have a natural interest in it to try it. But I wouldn't say that all or most players need to use it.
Originally posted by FongieThis might be a weird question, but do you have any helpful tips for maintaining concentration for people who need to play few tables, but easily get bored by it?
Thanks
Not such a weird question. Very simply, focus is driven by goals. If you can't focus, you need to look at your goals - they may not be big enough. If you don't challenge your mind, and can play very well without very little thought, they it's easy for the mind to shut off. If you think about it, why would you focus if you can play very well without much thought? You wouldn't unless you were challenged by trying to step your game to greater heights. Often if can seem as though there isn't much for you to be learning, especially only playing a few tables, however, the nature of the game, and the nature of performance, means there is ALWAYS room to improve. The better you become, it just becomes hard to find these smaller spots. If you look hard eventually you'll find them.
Originally posted by blackops888
Man! Your explanation was awesome... now I have a lot to say!
I get what you mean about the NLP thing, and I think you are right. Most authors will actually try to "attack" emotions with the intention of solving the problem, but they do not consider that they are just effects. Therefore, their techniques serve for the purpose of suppression... but what we need here is a way of looking at the root of the problem, instead of dealing with effects that are disguised as causes, but are not causes at all. I'll dwell on that for some time. Thanks for the insight!
Now... I know you just meant to give an example and I did not give you any clue about that, but the part of your text I quoted above is EXACTLY what used to happen to me. It was a fortunate coincidence.
I used to play poker like that and a lot of suffering was generated out of that mindset. I was the most results-oriented person I've even known. The thing started to change when I realized that the results-oriented thing was not created by poker at all... it was simply a matter of feeling the majority of its effects on poker, and also the fact that the "poker effects" are easily quantifiable (i.e. loss of money).
I was results-oriented in all areas of life... in all sorts of relationships, even in games between friends that involved no money at all, even when playing single against a computer... competition was always there. The only way of getting satisfaction was being the winner. And the most weird thing is that the "target" (or the result I expected to reach) was NEVER in reach. It was always an abstraction that got further and further it didn't matter how much I was trying to reach it.
In practical terms... If I was playing a war game in the computer and "booked" a nice match in which I killed, let's say, 30 guys and died 2 times (which is ridiculously insane in most war games and first-person shooters) I'd think "Well done... but I could have died just 1 time had I not done this and that and that against that guy". If I was playing poker and finished a session with +5 buy-ins (which is VERY nice, no matter the stakes or game involved) I'd then think "Well... but I could have done +7 buy-ins if that guy had not sucked out on me and if I had not spewed my chips on that other guy at that circumstance". To summarize: there was always an abstraction to chase, and that abstraction could never be reached.
I'm trying to get to a point here, which is the following. I actually expected to be a winner at every single session. Not because I expected to win, but because no matter how good I ran, I was never satisfied. No matter what I done, it was never enough. Needless to say that if I ran bad I was doubly depressed for showing so much incompetence!
The thing really changed to me when I understood that I needed to understand the nature of things (of all things, actually) an be OK with it. That out of resistance to things AS THEY ARE is that all suffering is born. If I expect to have a straight line of profit out of poker and I don't have it, it is not because I'm not being good enough to play it in a way that a straight line just appears in my screen, but because I'm not being good enough to assess the reality of the game and deal with it properly. When I meditated deeply on issues like variance and long-term expectation I could finally get rid of this bad mindset.
The result of all this is that now I don't bother (and I mean I really don't give a shit) when I'm a favorite on a hand and get sucked out, because that's the nature of the game. Now I'm also fine when I finish my session with +1BI, +3BI or even -3BI... because tomorrow I'll be there again and everything is alright the way it is...
I used to think that when one says "everything is alright the way it is" he was actually conforming with the situation, giving up any effort to change it. And that's why I resisted... but now I see that if I face things this way, then I'm capable of changing them with an effectiveness that was never possible before.
And that's how my poker got better and my win rate went from like 3BB/100 to 15BB/100 in a matter of weeks at pot-limit omaha. ♠_biggrin:
Thanks! That's very funny to have nailed your old issue like that, lol!
Very cool to hear that you've really worked through the issue successfully as you have, and I would imagine you can compare the differences to the process you took and what NLP describes, quite well.
One thing for you to think about as you move forward, is how you understand how things are, "as they are." If you didn't suffer, you wouldn't be able to find out what is real. Suffering is a consequence - and these are necessary for learning. If you experience it again, rather than getting caught up in the frustration, anxiety, self-criticism, depressive, feelings/thoughts, figure out what about reality you are resisting, and figure out what you need to learn to handle thing differently.
Originally posted by MarcPS
all I can say reading this thread is wow.what a sicko you are sir.
I've known pleno1 a long time and you said more about his mental state in those paragraph than I could have done in another ten years (even though I have similarish problems, although maybe not to the same extreme)
[x] book ordered.
♦ thanks Marc! I'm curious what you think of the book, once you dig your way into it. Enjoy!
Originally posted by pleno1
Originally posted by JaredTendler
Originally posted by pleno1
Originally posted by JaredTendler
Originally posted by pleno1
The second most famous Barry from Sheffield ITT!!Seriously - fantastic answers guys, can't wait to get my hands on the book.
The problem I have is when I know I'm going to have a losing session (tournaments) I find it insanely hard to concentrate. For example I have a 30 tournament schedule with lots of $200/$300's in, I usually go to the gym/swim beforehand and get in a really good mind frame, eventually I will be1 or 2 tabling a $26 at the end. I really find it hard to get the motivation to finish the session with the same mindset I started it with.
Another thing I have which I think is pretty huge and specific to me. Its hard to put it into words so I'll just tell the story. I was playing in a "deepstack" monthly tournament. Within the first 3 levels the average was 11,100 and I had 34,000. Half way through the next level I got really unlucky in two spots and I had 14,400. For me the tournament was over and instead of thinking "hey I'm above average" I just couldn't take my mind off thinking how many chips I had and that they should still be mine. I tilted off calling bets with any two cards and eventually bust before the end of the level. Whats the best way to keep myself composed in these spots? I literally think it could add an extra 7-8% on my roi.
Seriously, you're a Sheffield Barry?!
To your first problem - it sounds like your mindset gets off track because you end of focusing much more on results, than on the quality of your play. While financially, the end of a losing session, playing a tourny for a tiny amount, seems like a waste - as far as your learning goes - it's a tremendous opportunity. Why? Because its hard for you to focus and play the way you know you should. When that's hard, it means, that playing correctly at that time helps you train skills to the deepest level - Unconscious Competence (this is where you know something so well you never have to think about it, you just do it automatically). In order to reach that level, you must be able to avoid common mistakes. If you make a mistakes - it proves that you haven't yet mastered what is the correct way to play that particular spot. Instead, if you play correctly, even when the money is meaningless, you'll master these basics, and that allows you to move on to learning something new...because you can only focus on so much at one time.
To your second problem - it sounds like you get ahead of yourself, perhaps subtly feeling like you're in command of the tournament, maybe even that you might win, rather than staying committed to your strategy. Do you get nervous at that time?
Since I know that you tend to focus too much on results, I believe that's part of what happens here. Then as you start to lose, do you get a case of the "fuck its' - where you don't really care anymore because winning seems hopeless?
Post a few more details about what goes through your mind both when your accumulating a big stack, and on your way down. Then, I'll be able to figure out specifically what the cause is of your mindset getting thrown off track.
Yeah I start getting frustrated, thinking everybody is terrible at the table. When I call my hand is kind of pulling my chips back but my strong mentality forces them over the line. I think about seeing my girlfriend, getting a beer, basically anything apart from the one thing I'm there for, the tournament.
Straight after I walk about and I'm a cross between "meh" and "did I really just do that".
I think I'm understanding more now. Couple questions: Why is a losing session so frustrating? I realize you're not there to lose, but you know about variance, so I'm wondering specifically for you what makes losing so hard. Also, why are you playing the $26 games at the end?
Originally posted by pleno1
It is seriously very hard for me to just think "Hey Patrick, I know I'm the best player in this tournament, lets just stick to the strategy and keep making correct decisions and increasing my $ev" I know this is what I SHOULD be thinking but find it really hard to get into this mental state. I think I player poker best when I am really commanding a tournament/cash game and I'm chip leader/really deep. I guess this is the same for everybody though, but going from this phase where I think I am going to win the tournament to being still above average and knowing I'm going to be in the next 5 eliminations is really hard for me.The mental game, and a proper mindset is a skill. Skills need to develop. Some come more naturally than others, and it sounds like you're much stronger at leading than you are at coming from behind. It's actually not the same for everyone. There are plenty of players who handle it in the opposite way - they're worse with a lead (get nervous, for example) and play their best when things are going against them.
If you want to improve this area, then each time your down, you have to fight against your natural tendency and put extra focus on correct decisions and ev. It won't come natural right away, but like any skill the more you do it, the easier it gets.
A losing session for me is infuriating because I'm used to grinding out solid winning sessions at cash. When I play tournaments I find it very infuriating that I cant "get a chance to get my cash back" I obviously udnerstand this is a big thing in tournaments.
I've also had 4 scores where I made mid 4 figures but was like 10-15 people off a huuuuge 6 figure score. I work outside of the felt on my game more than anybody else I know and I am super super dedicated and it feels to me like I've been "robbed" of huge huge score. So everytime I play a huge session I know I'm +ev for the session and that I have a good chance of a huge bink, but afterwards just feel totally robbed and as if I have just wasted a day where I could have been grinding cash.
Sorry if this sounds like rambling, just trying to really put across how I feel at the time, which is probably inside my head, just a load of rambling.
Not rambling at all. Glad you got this out of your head, because it helps to really narrow down the issue: Injustice Tilt. Which essentially means that you get pissed off because of results that you feel are unfair or unjust. Along with this issue, is also a feeling of a lack of control. That you're sort of helpless to impact the outcome, and don't have control of whether you have a winning day or a cash that you believe is deserved.
Logically these statements can sometimes seem illogical, but the reality is that you're emotions are reacting this way, which means, at a deeper level you believe them.
Have a look at the Injustice Tilt section, as well as Chapter 8 where I talk about the skill of recognizing variance. The reality is you clearly have a lot of knowledge about variance, and the differences between cash and tournament play, but that knowledge isn't known well enough to curb your reaction to losing. I'd recommend actually studying variance in tournaments much as you would another poker concept. The strong this skill is, the less you'll feel like what's happening is unjust, because you'll know more about what is legit and not. Plus, you'll also be focused even more on the quality of your play, and less on the outcomes in the short-term. Which means the results will feel less out of control, because you'll be focused on the only thing you have ultimate control of: your game. You don't get to decide, when its you're turn for a huge cash, you only can keep at it long enough to keep putting yourself in position to capitalize on the opportunities.
I hope too that if you look back at you're previous posts, you can see how your understanding of the problem has become more specific and detailed. For you and everyone else, this process of building recognition/awareness is critical to solving the real problems. Writing is a great tool, for building recognition.
Does all this help/answer things for you?
Originally posted by pleno1
Also with the $26 I play them because I know there is potentially a very decent ROI and a nice score, but I have the mentality that I will go for chips and really try to win the tournament from the get-go which is obviously a bad mentality, but I really try to sometimes take flips in order to get a stack (because thats when I feel comfortable) when perhaps I don't need to.This is just for $26's not bigger MTT's btw.
Sounds like part of this too is just figuring out an optimal strategy for playing this kind of tourney. Clearly you know now what's not working. That doesn't automatically mean you know what the correct/optimal way to play them is, but figure out a better one, and give it a try.
There's always a tactical side to mental mistakes.
Originally posted by jbpatzer
Can you release your book for Kindle a.s.a.p. please? I only read stuff on my Kindle now. Paper is just sooooooo 20th century.
I know, I have fallen behind the times. Honestly, the ebook market changed a lot in the last 5 months, and I was so focused on putting out a great book, that I haven't had a chance to get it done. It'll happen, now just a question of when - and I'd bet in the next 2-4 months for sure.
Originally posted by JaredTendler
Originally posted by jbpatzer
Can you release your book for Kindle a.s.a.p. please? I only read stuff on my Kindle now. Paper is just sooooooo 20th century.I know, I have fallen behind the times. Honestly, the ebook market changed a lot in the last 5 months, and I was so focused on putting out a great book, that I haven't had a chance to get it done. It'll happen, now just a question of when - and I'd bet in the next 2-4 months for sure.
Thanks. I hope us PS members can get a discount on that too. 
Originally posted by Helipacter
Okay, this question could be a bit fluffy:What tips/tools/advice can you offer a player that is tilting, knows it, but won't leave the table. (Fortunately, it doesn't happen so often to me, but when it does it's like a tractor beam, and all roads lead to to the kingdom of Busto.)
In my experience, the following scenarios have occurred:
1) I normally set myself a hand limit for the session (say 200), on hand 180 I get a bad beat, and I feel the evil rise. After a while I "wake up" on, say, hand 300. I realise that I've spent the passed 120 hands wishing cancer on the guy whilst still trying to recoup some losses, but I cannot leave the table.
2) If I get one-outed by some bum, I immediately leave the table and say "no poker for 24hours". Two hours later I'm back at my desk raging at the world.
I'm fully aware that I know I'm steaming (temples pulsing), but I can't snap out of it.
So, long story short, how does a person get their mind off a bad session whilst still in a tilt-funk?
Cheers
There's nothing fluffy about this question - unless we have different definitions of fluffy:)
The only way to correct this type of tilt is to do a lot of work away from the table to break down your Accumulated Tilt (or so I call it). Basically, in your mind, you have have collected anger/tilt over the years and now whenever you have a bad beat, or suck-out, it's like your mind is instantly flooded with emotion. So much emotion, that it overwhelms your mind and you lose control. Frankly, it's nearly impossible for you to be in control when the emotion is that strong.
The reason is that thinking is essentially how the mind maintains control. However, when emotions rise too high, they shut down the mind, and prevent you from being about to think, and thus maintain emotional control.
Which is why your job is to do work away from the table to break down this accumulated emotion, so they're is less of it to deal with and thus easier to maintain control. AND then you need to also get better at maintaining control during your session.
I'll be honest, this is the most difficult thing to accomplish in the mental game. The work you do off the table, has to be taken with the seriousness as though you're preparing for a poker life/death situation. I'm happy to help you work through some of it in the forum. If you can afford it, I'd definitely recommend getting my book, it's designed to help clearly lay out how to address a problem like this. Then, my help in the forum, would be much more productive.
Either way, what is is about a bad beat/suck out that causes you to get so angry?
Originally posted by THESHade
Hey,
I am reading the book and I rly like the "inchworm" theory. It makes a lot of sense to me
One Q though, Is this concept discussed further in the book cause when I thought about it then my current approach to studying might be wrong? (I am jsut on chapter 4-answering some Qs)
Thnx
Glad to hear the concept of Inchworm, really hit home. To me, it's such an important (obviously oddly named) concept, that helps to make the complex process of improving really easy.
Just adding briefly to what Barry mentioned, what about your current approach to studying do you think is off?
Originally posted by JaredTendler
Originally posted by THESHade
Hey,
I am reading the book and I rly like the "inchworm" theory. It makes a lot of sense to me
One Q though, Is this concept discussed further in the book cause when I thought about it then my current approach to studying might be wrong? (I am jsut on chapter 4-answering some Qs)
ThnxGlad to hear the concept of Inchworm, really hit home. To me, it's such an important (obviously oddly named) concept, that helps to make the complex process of improving really easy.
Just adding briefly to what Barry mentioned, what about your current approach to studying do you think is off?
Well, I always watch new vids (not rly re-watching old ones) I didnt even take notes when I was watching smth (now I do) and I am always relying on my brain to remember stuff (not just in poker, in every-day life -I take it as some kidn of challenge, or not even a challenge but smth I am sued to and is part of me not wanting "outside" help or smth)
Now I try to take notes through vids and watch even osme vids that might not contain new (or at least not a lot of new info) just to kind of review some stuff
My rough schedule for this month is playingh 4 hours and studying 4 hours(Watching vids, reviewing, reading forums, etc.) (so far it was less cause I feel a bit sick + some technical difficulties)
I dont know if this is too much? maybe it will hurt my "left side" of the inchworm?
Also whenever I take more then (lets say) 2 days off I feel not that confident in my game, thats prob. normal for most people I guess?
Originally posted by JaredTendler
Originally posted by Helipacter
Okay, this question could be a bit fluffy:What tips/tools/advice can you offer a player that is tilting, knows it, but won't leave the table. (Fortunately, it doesn't happen so often to me, but when it does it's like a tractor beam, and all roads lead to to the kingdom of Busto.)
In my experience, the following scenarios have occurred:
1) I normally set myself a hand limit for the session (say 200), on hand 180 I get a bad beat, and I feel the evil rise. After a while I "wake up" on, say, hand 300. I realise that I've spent the passed 120 hands wishing cancer on the guy whilst still trying to recoup some losses, but I cannot leave the table.
2) If I get one-outed by some bum, I immediately leave the table and say "no poker for 24hours". Two hours later I'm back at my desk raging at the world.
I'm fully aware that I know I'm steaming (temples pulsing), but I can't snap out of it.
So, long story short, how does a person get their mind off a bad session whilst still in a tilt-funk?
Cheers
There's nothing fluffy about this question - unless we have different definitions of fluffy:)
The only way to correct this type of tilt is to do a lot of work away from the table to break down your Accumulated Tilt (or so I call it). Basically, in your mind, you have have collected anger/tilt over the years and now whenever you have a bad beat, or suck-out, it's like your mind is instantly flooded with emotion. So much emotion, that it overwhelms your mind and you lose control. Frankly, it's nearly impossible for you to be in control when the emotion is that strong.
The reason is that thinking is essentially how the mind maintains control. However, when emotions rise too high, they shut down the mind, and prevent you from being about to think, and thus maintain emotional control.
Which is why your job is to do work away from the table to break down this accumulated emotion, so they're is less of it to deal with and thus easier to maintain control. AND then you need to also get better at maintaining control during your session.
I'll be honest, this is the most difficult thing to accomplish in the mental game. The work you do off the table, has to be taken with the seriousness as though you're preparing for a poker life/death situation. I'm happy to help you work through some of it in the forum. If you can afford it, I'd definitely recommend getting my book, it's designed to help clearly lay out how to address a problem like this. Then, my help in the forum, would be much more productive.
Either way, what is is about a bad beat/suck out that causes you to get so angry?
Sorry, the post began fluffy, but became concrete, so I should've changed the first line - my bad!
Thanks for the offer, though I'm speaking more in general than specifics. I've definitely had these emotions at the beginning of my "poker career", but now I can recognise them brewing away and shut down before they get too much (thank you Tommy Angelo!). The greatest anti-tilt tactic ever: click "leave table" and go and do something productive (cooking or gardening are great for this!). If I'm on the end of consecutive bad beats, I run, not walk, to the exits!
My worst "tilt habit" is chasing losses; say I'm 5BB down, I'll stay a little longer than optimal - but again, this is something I'm working on.
I suppose I should've phrased my argument better. Basically, are there any tips to talk yourself out of playing under a cloud of tilt, or is it merely a case of recognising it, and convincing yourself that you're wasting your time? (This isn't exclusively tilt either, but sleep, hunger, drink - sub-optimal is sub optimal, I suppose tilt is the worst because there can be a sense of shame attached to it - you've always lost to a moron, right?!.)
Whilst I'm not immune from tilt (who is?), I wouldn't say that I play in an angry state of mind. I realise that I give someone the satisfaction of seeing me leave immediately following their one-outer on the river, but I do take satisfaction in the fact that they're not getting any more of my BBs.
(Apologies for the wall of text!)
Hello Jared.
I have two questions:
1- I have this problem which is not exactly tilt (even though I still have a lot of tilt problems), or at least, not the tilt I experience when in other circumstances.
I play Heads Up SNGs at the 100 USD level , and I noticed that during night time I play much worse than my normal game, especially after 9:00PM. I had a feeling that this is true and decided to use Holdem Manager to check, and I found I was correct I´m a losing player after around 9:00 (-6%) but I´m a winner during the rest of the day. And it´s not only poker related, I feel that the closest it is to bedtime the worse my mind functions, I notice this even in social situations because it´s not uncommon for me to struggle for words around 12:00PM. It probably is somewhat like this for everybody but I feel it is much worse for me than for everybody else.
The problem is that there are a lot of soft games during this time, but my play is so much worse (I´m still learning a lot so not too much learned to the unconcious level)that the fish end up having an edge on me.
So, what can I do about this? One thing I know is that stuff like coffee or RedBull doesn´t work for me, I just get more agitated and stay awake longer, but my mental clarity doesnt improve, quite the opposite.
2- You know when you have these short periods of time where you feel you are at your best intellectually? High mental clarity?
I feel I get these only a few hours a month, and well, would like to know how to make these more frequent.
I feel like I eat decently and I run two times a week (not going to the gym now because I lack the time really), so what can I do else?
