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Average players on the microstakes

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DodoBrabbel
Joined: 21.08.2009

Hi everyone, I am learning shorthanded poker on NL5. Everywhere I hear that the loose passive players never fold, so I wanted to see if it is true using pokertracker. Some additional conclusions can be made maybe. Can you experts provide some further insight maybe?

I analyzed my first 3500 hands to see how different player types play. My own stats are excluded from the average, but added as comparison. The two types are TAG filtered as players that have more than 13% pre-flop raise, and VPIP at most 6 higher than that. Loose passive are players that have PFR below 13%, and VPIP at least 10 higher that that. The stats are in the image linked here

On average Cbets make an auto profit against everyone, and get punished very little by check/raises. Nobody likes to fold to the double barrel. Then there is a difference between the player types, the TAG folds 80% to the third barrel, the loose passive 20%. Against TAG players it seems that (semi)bluffing works best as either the single Cbet, or a triple barrel. Against loose passive players it seems that bluffing should only be done as a single Cbet. So basically my conclusion is that loose passive players can fold on the flop, but after they decide to like the flop, they call too much. Does this analysis make sense?

Some other takeaways in the stats are
- Opponents seem to fold too often after they didn't Cbet, and this can be exploited easily.
- My own 3Bet is pretty low. When I checked the leaktracker it shows that mostly in CO, BU, BB I need to 3Bet more instead of calling.
- My fold to CBet is lower than average, but if it increases I am super exploitable. Should it be changed?
- I seem to fold too little to check/raises. Especially since opponents do it only with strong hands apparently.

Thanks for reading :)


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VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Interesting numbers
Even though you have only 3500 hands, you seem to be noticing trends that match general expectations

As for changing your play, I would suggest that over 3500 hands it is too soon to tell.
For example: "I seem to fold too little to check/raises"
In 3500 hands you've been check/raised how many times?
You might have just had hands that were unlikely to hold up.

Now that you're aware, the next time you're check-raised, examine your hand carefully:
:diamond: Β Is it a made hand or a draw?
:diamond: Β If a made hand -- how strong? Two pair, TPTK, trips, set or whatever
:diamond: Β If a draw, are you drawing to the nuts, and how many outs?
:diamond: Β Pot odds and implied odds matter for draws also.

Cheers,
VS


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DodoBrabbel
Joined: 21.08.2009

I suppose that a check/raise stats needs many more hands than the preflop raise right? Somewhere I read you need 200k hands to know your real winrate, but that seems like a lot to not adjust anything.

Anyway sometimes I go a little overboard with analysis and should focus on the basics. Calculating pot odds can be hard sometimes, but usually I manage. Quantifying implied odds seems impossible so far, but at least I know that TAG players give little of it.


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SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

I made your picture visible. Than we don't need to click on links.

Cheers,
SDK1987


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Rezion1990
Joined: 25.01.2021

So does it mean that microstakes games still reward solid ABC Tag play?


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SamoB25
Joined: 02.10.2009

My experience is - yes. Even if everyone at the table is tight, I usually try to be tighter than them and it always rewards me. Somebody always eventually gets bored and starts doing funky bets πŸ˜ƒ


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monteCarlol
Joined: 24.08.2019

There are two basic concepts that I found confusing in the beginning because they seem to contradict each other:

  • Iso-raising against weak players to take the pot down with a cbet
  • Exploiting calling stations by over value betting

It works because weak players call too much pre-flop and fold too much on the flop. And when they hit anything, they call you down. If they start raising you can happily fold. And I think your numbers also imply this. But as mentioned before, this is a very very very small sample size.


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korensdervs
Joined: 01.02.2023

As for changing your play, I would suggest that over 3500 hands it is too soon to tell.
For example: "I seem to fold too little to check/raises"


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yangmartins
Joined: 28.11.2009

I am usually the one asking for oppinions on this subject and as I appreciate those whom provide feedback, I'll try "pay it back" best that I can.

1- 3500 hands really is not much, but ok, it start a trend.

2- I like to think of NL5 as a "prepare you game for next stake", by starting to trim a couple of things and start getting a little more familiar with next stake game. With that in mind:

VPIP/PFR= 24/18, seems to me you may have some space there to bring your PFR a little higher. Regardless of your post flop advantage, soon as flop is dealt, rake is paid.
3Bet, you already said it. I think it can align with above line and for the same reason, mostly. Also, a thing I noticed in NL10, is that very often you'll have semi-decent players in blinds ready to squeeze if you call instead of 3betting. Do some research on hands that can 3bet as "semi-bluff" or hands that have positive blockers for 3bet calls.

Flop: When I first read your post, I was going to point out the difference between FCBet and T/RCBet, but since you justified it so well, there's nothing to add, axcept "Good exploit".
Your check raise may be something you want to work on, specially if you already identified your villains as aggro or passive. I like to check/raise aggros OTF.
Your fold to FCBet and F float are somehow triggering something for me. It looks like you may be giving away some 2nd pair hands and draws that may very well be SD matherial. I may be very wrong here, but maybe is worth to review some hands you folded Flop with decent hands/draws.

You Turn game is quite simplified by your Flop game. You already enter the turn with a strategy. Nothing to add here, except next point.
Also, make sure you do not get uncomfortable playing turns because you follow a strong flop strategy

River: 63% fold to RCBet? What makes you think after FCBet and TCBet, villain will not RCBet? most of the hands you are folding here are likely Turn folds. Check pyramidal deffense articles. Looks like you can shift some of your River folds to Turn.

Overall, your AF can be slightly higher, but in 3500 hands, that's negligible. Re-evaluate it over 10k, 50k...Also, look at your positional awareness and river call efficiency. Those are usually disregarded, but a good "stability" trackers, imo.

GL @ the tables


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H0witzer
Joined: 27.02.2023

Interesting analysis and stats. Thanks for sharing DodoBrabbel :f_thumbsup:.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
Now that you're aware, the next time you're check-raised, examine your hand carefully:
:diamond: Β Is it a made hand or a draw?
:diamond: Β If a made hand -- how strong? Two pair, TPTK, trips, set or whatever
:diamond: Β If a draw, are you drawing to the nuts, and how many outs?
:diamond: Β Pot odds and implied odds matter for draws also.

Great tip. Something to write down in my poker post-its.

Originally posted by monteCarlol
There are two basic concepts that I found confusing in the beginning because they seem to contradict each other:

  • Iso-raising against weak players to take the pot down with a cbet
  • Exploiting calling stations by over value betting

It works because weak players call too much pre-flop and fold too much on the flop. And when they hit anything, they call you down. If they start raising you can happily fold. And I think your numbers also imply this. But as mentioned before, this is a very very very small sample size.

Thx for clearing the meaning after iso-raising up. I do this on autopilot but now it makes a lot of sense.


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H0witzer
Joined: 27.02.2023

Is it possible to makes the OP table with the free version of H2Note? I don't mind sharing my first 10k hands.


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