Do I suck at Zoom?

Originally posted by Dublimax
I wouldnt sqz SCs here btw. But then again 14bbs is too big when you bluff. That's 7x!

Sizing depends a lot on how you construct your range and maybe for your range making it so small makes sense. For what I would 3bet here and what I expect opponents to do, 10bb is too small.

When Hero said he 3bets 78s in this spot it's clear imo that 10bb is incredibly small and will just get himself in nut-worst spot: big pot, OOP 3way with weak hand.

I think what will get OP in throuble is too sqz 78s not the sizing.
To put 14bbs in a 5.5 bb pot is not optimal imo. 10-11bbs max should do the job

I'd make it 11 or 12 depending on the moon phase

This is getting somewhat interesting now, keep going!

If by optimal you mean balanced you are probably right.

If you mean MaxEV, it's relative to your range. I'm saying ~14bbs works best for my range and the "standard" of what a minraise means from 65bb stack UTG, combined with the weak range of BU that is probably going for implied odds.

The thing is, when I have a depolarized range, I'm not gonna 3bet KJo too fold on J76ds so BU gets odds for setmining quite often with your sizing imo.

What changes my sizing the most is the fact that we are facing 2 players not 1.

by optimal I mean max EV obv.

Ofc if UTG is a huge fish that will call any bet then you can even make it 18bbs. But in that case we don't have a bluffing range and it is not even worth discussing.

If you do have a bluffing range in this spot, which you should but I am not sure you have one from what I understand(?), I believe that making it smaller is better i.e max EV.

Then ofc when you make it smaller you have to be a bit more cautious post flop and not necessarily stack off on every TP (esp vs BU).

Emanuel, you mentioned that UTG has weak range.

That's incorrect. The guy seemed regish and many regs tend to minraise from every position in zoom. I would give him standard UTG range, that's why my squeeze range there is premiums like JJ+, AQ+ and squeeze/folding hands like some SCs because I don't want to play OOP vs two presumably regs. I could also choose some pockets or Axs for this but IMO SCs play much better in such pots (as yourdoom discussed in his videos).

Originally posted by OwaruSekai

Originally posted by z1pz0r
Hand 1:
As said, I didn't know he was a fish. I would probably squeeze with something like 78s too because I expect to have decent fold equity with my sizing vs presumable regs.

Hand 2: I didn't mention that he 3betted me a bit before, that's why I ruled out QQ and AA. 44 has 3 combos, AJ has 9 and I estimated he calls more than 33% with AJ on river, maybe this presumtion is wrong.

Thank you for all answers.

Hand 2:

Actually he only has 6 combos of AJ on the river, remember what hand you're holding :/. And it depends on how wide he floats there obviously, but if you think he thinks you're full of shit he could have atleast a few combos of pure floats like 66 on the river, aswell as random broadways some of which spiked the river F.E. KJs, but still bet because he thinks they're too weak to check back.

But realistically speaking his river bet/call range is: 50% of his AJ combos at most (3), KTs (3) since he probably raises the turn with KcTc, 44 (3), and 33% of 66 combos (1). So you beat 3 combos and lose to 7.

This nevertheless is a pretty optimistic estimation he could be floating you with KTo in which case this is a HUGE mistake to ch/r.

Yeah it seems you're right. I for some reason thought he could also do this with QJs, but even that is only two combos.

hand #2 i'd bet/fold the river

Originally posted by Dublimax
by optimal I mean max EV obv.

Ofc if UTG is a huge fish that will call any bet then you can even make it 18bbs. But in that case we don't have a bluffing range and it is not even worth discussing.

If you do have a bluffing range in this spot, which you should but I am not sure you have one from what I understand(?), I believe that making it smaller is better i.e max EV.

Then ofc when you make it smaller you have to be a bit more cautious post flop and not necessarily stack off on every TP (esp vs BU).

Optimal means GTO usually which is close to what balance is trying to acheive, that's why I asked.

I definitely have 3bet range that folds to a 4bet here but all hands I 3bet here I expect to be a slight favourite against most of what my opponents would call IP. A hand like KTs for example, since I expect their range to have more JT, T9, 89 and small-medium pairs than KJ and KQ.

Basically, my overall range is way ahead of what they call with IP so I'd say I don't have a pure bluff in my range like Q8s, J9s, K7s, which are probably the best type of hands to bluff 3bet.

@UTG reg-ish. If a reg plays 65bbs and minopens, it's his business. I assume he is a bad player until he proves me wrong. You think they open small with a tight range UTG? They minopen to have a wider range imo.

I doubt YourDoom suggested squeezing SC when you expect to get callers being OOP vs UTG raise. If he did, I like to hear more detailed reasoning for it or a link to that vid if you have pls. I don't get how a weak hand is a profitable 3bet here if we expect to go postflop a reasonable amount.

I might have phrased that wrong. He only advises not to use small pockets as 3bet bluffs, as well as dominated aces , kings and queens (like you mentioned Q8s, K7s).

Their range might be wider than usual, yes. I still think it's not above, say 22%.

Obv I dont want to squeeze only premiums for value in that spot, that's why I need some bluff hands to balance.

Emanuel, maybe you don't agree with me because you think that I have no preflop fold equity. I think I do have.

Originally posted by z1pz0r
I might have phrased that wrong. He only advises not to use small pockets as 3bet bluffs, as well as dominated aces , kings and queens (like you mentioned Q8s, K7s).

Their range might be wider than usual, yes. I still think it's not above, say 22%.

Obv I dont want to squeeze only premiums for value in that spot, that's why I need some bluff hands to balance.

Emanuel, maybe you don't agree with me because you think that I have no preflop fold equity. I think I do have.

22% is waaaaay to wide from UTG if you have an aware reg at the table imo, unless you plan to develop super aggro game with everyone but I think that's beside the point atm...

Your "bluffs" depend on what you expect opponents to defend:
- if they defend suited connectors, suited Ax, Kx, Qx are better;
- if they defend suited broadways, connectors might work but they are far from creating a super profitable spot OOP, might as well depolarize your range and pwn him range vs range;
- if they 4bet or fold (never or rarely), polarized is the way to go imo and blockers are best for polarized 3bets or 4bets;

You do have preflop fold equity.. Very little with that sizing (which is not bad with your specific hand but not great when you have a wider range) and you still say to use hands weaker than anything he defends with to bluff him postflop OOP.

IP you can 3bet anything you want really. SC are good for 3betting when you can isolate a player and play HU postflop and you know his range will be face-up in that spot. Say CO vs SB when you know he has a capped range 99% of the time when calling and not 4betting.

The difference in equity is not at all significant if you get called by high cards only:

       Equity     Win     Tie
MP3    64.21%  63.96%   0.25% { JJ-TT, AQs-AJs, KJs+, AQo-AJo, KQo }
CO     35.79%  35.54%   0.25% { 97s+, 86s+, 76s }

       Equity     Win     Tie
MP2    35.97%  35.05%   0.92% { A9s-A8s, K9s-K7s, Q9s-Q8s, J9s }
MP3    64.03%  63.11%   0.92% { JJ-TT, AQs-AJs, KJs+, AQo-AJo, KQo }

When you add SC to his calling range edge goes more and more towards suited Kx type hands.

       Equity     Win     Tie
MP3    63.67%  62.37%   1.30% { JJ-TT, AQs-AJs, KJs+, QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AQo-AJo, KQo }
CO     36.33%  35.03%   1.30% { 97s+, 86s+, 76s }

       Equity     Win     Tie
MP2    41.29%  40.34%   0.95% { A9s-A8s, K9s-K7s, Q9s-Q8s, J9s }
MP3    58.71%  57.76%   0.95% { JJ-TT, AQs-AJs, KJs+, QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AQo-AJo, KQo }

Apart from the equity advantage, high cards have blockers (probably more effective to get folds) and draw to nutty flushes.

SC might work for YourDoom but you haven't given me any reason to believe it's correct or explain why it works for him. What I'm ranting here is stuff I've seen in 0human0's vids that got me thinking and it makes a whole lot of sense.

Btw, given certain circumstances any play can be the best one so I'm not saying SC are not correct but I would like to know where they make sense and why? I use them but almost in every spot if I am to choose between the suited high card and a medium SC I choose the higher card to be aggro with.

I will comment on rest later, I just wonder where the hell did you find 0human0's vids.

Originally posted by z1pz0r
I will comment on rest later, I just wonder where the hell did you find 0human0's vids.

He had a Romanian training site. His vids are in Romanian.

do his vids still exist? im actually willing to learn some romanian to see his vids ♦

Originally posted by z1pz0r
do his vids still exist? im actually willing to learn some romanian to see his vids ♦

I have them and was thinking of dubbing them in English for some friends but they are all 1hr+ long and if dubbing each one takes 2hrs.. well... I have to be really bored to do it...

Are there any HU vids of him? I recall watching vid where FoxwoodsFiend was facing him, def an interesting player.

Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
Are there any HU vids of him? I recall watching vid where FoxwoodsFiend was facing him, def an interesting player.

No, some vids of him playing NL200, one reviewing NL400 and NL200 sessions of a player and one NL1k session, all SH, just the NL1k has a HU table he gets a couple of hands of action, nothing special though.

Too bad he closed the site, it's back from when he had wasn't playing nosebleeds and he could've made some really sick videos now.

I think when he played FoxwoodsFiend he was even worse than when he made the vids I'm talking about since I remember him commenting and saying something about launching his website in one of the videos.

LE:

Best conversation from his vids:
0human0: "who said that?"
ROplayer: "aejones in his videos"
0human0: "forget aejones, he talks BS in his videos"
ROplayer: "he talks BS?"
0human0: "either that or he has no idea what the hell he is talking about!"

Naw, he was up a mil or so on stars back then. And yea, can't stand aejones vids, seems like making himself look like a tough guy is more important to him than educational value of his vids.

Emanuel, added you on PS community tool.