[Closed] SSS gone wrong.

I suspect the donk is probably playing a Q, but the board has draws, so I raise here. I would happily take this pot down right now, but if he is drawing, I want him to pay more than it is worth. Is this ok?

If the donk is in fact not a donk you are in trouble here. After the PF action villain cold hold anything if he is a donk or most probably a PP(maybe SC /suited A) if he's decent. A small donkbet from a donk usually means a weak made hand or a draw (your raise is good here). A small (although big enough in this case) donkbet from a decent player OOP is most likely not a draw but probably a strong hand ( he wants you to raise with your OP and commit yourself to the pot). Donk's love to check their strong hands.

Unless you know villain it is impossible not to become tied to the pot after such a drawy flop.

Nice hand! You played it correctly on every street. If he beats you it's just bad luck.

Best regards,
Puschkin81

@ Nunki
As a limper preflop, I don't put him on AA or QQ. Rarely do the limpers have these hands. Only occasionally does someone try to be that cute. I don't mind if he is holding AQ, even suited, but this is also unlikely. I am more worried about the FD, or a pocket pair like fives or eights. I could also be against sixes or sevens, in which case I am already done for. The turn doesn't complete any draws that he could be holding. If he isn't a donk, then the only hand that makes sense would be the set of sixes or sevens. But in that case wouldn't he check to the raiser on this flop and call any bet, then hit me on the turn, either donk or check/raise? Or have I got that wrong? Is that exactly what a donk would do?

The good thing about SSS is that most people don't know that they should fold to a raise from the short stack player, and they will call their weak hands, like Qxs.

@ Puschkin

If he isn't a donk, then the only hand that makes sense would be the set of sixes or sevens. But in that case wouldn't he check to the raiser on this flop and call any bet, then hit me on the turn, either donk or check/raise?

This is possible of course. Leading into the PFR is another way to go and not often taken by donks with strong hands.

Actually the turn completes an 9-8 OESD that he might have semibluffed on flop to try to take the pot away cheaply , and then called your raise anyway.

Yeah, it does, but my point is, that is an unlikely holding, given the preflop action. Calling 7BB is a big move, and 89 would be so bad, that I win anyway. Not that that stops them, thankfully.

I´m not a NL BBS Player, so I´m more asking then suggesting.
Isn´t it better to fold on the turn here? I mean after the flop where we raised his donkbet, he put himself all-in on the turn. He might only have Top Pair Top Kicker, but I think there is a pretty good chance that he has a set or straight here.

I think that an overpair KK is overplayed here. But I really hope to read some thoughts from other players who actually play NL BBS NL100 and higher.

I'd be interested in an experienced BSS players view here as well. I look at it like this. On the turn, his donk bet gives me 3.22:1 pot odds. Means I need to win 1 in four, and make a profit. I reckon I will win that many at least, but I could be wrong about that.

EDIT:

I just did this equilator on a possible hand range.

Board: Qs 7s 6d 5h
Dead:

Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
Player 1: 27.431 % 27.431 % 0.000 % 72.569 % 44-TT, AQ, KT+, QT+, Q9s, JTs, 98
Player 2: 72.569 % 72.569 % 0.000 % 27.431 % KK

I think this is a likely hand range, and contains the hands that will beat me. There could be more. But with these, my equity is 72.5% on the turn. I must play.

I would say that AQ and TT are not in his limping Range here preflop. Maybe 99 neither.
And on the Turn he should put you at least on AQ, KK, AA, maybe QQ, so why does he still donks? Honestly I still see no hand who would play like villian did which we beat.

Ok, lets adjust the range. PP 4 to 8, Q8-QJ, and 89.

Board: Qs 7s 6d 5h
Dead:

Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
Player 1: 42.374 % 42.374 % 0.000 % 57.626 % 44-88, Q8+, 98
Player 2: 57.626 % 57.626 % 0.000 % 42.374 % KK

I still have almost 6:4 equity edge, and getting 3.2:1. Do you believe that this play means I am always beaten?

These are just my thoughts. I´m only playing NL SSS myself and never BBS, so I do not know. You´re right that you are not almost beaten. But I think that villian should have to put you on either AQ or an Overpair like AA, KK here, because of your Reraise. you would not do that with e.g. AK.

So I would ask me with what would he go All-In on the Turn anyway?
But I also could ask myself, why isn´t he just checking and then goes All-In after I betted the Turn.

... honestly I´m confused by that hand. I might would time out before I could decided if I either call or fold here on the Turn. ♦

Yeah, I appreciate what you're saying. I was in SSS mode myself, which means that prone to all in with a hand like this. I really don't know what the correct BSS play would be, though Puschkin did say correctly played.

The factor you have to take into consideration is, what did he call the original raise with? Preflop, he put 7BB in without any hesitation. Unless he had AA - QQ, that was pretty much a mistake, and a bad one, and I didn't consider at all that he would have those hands. Since he can play that badly preflop, he could easily continue to play just as badly post flop. His donk bet on the flop looked to me like a top pair bet. I play 8 tables, so I just fired the raise straight back without too much thought, and he was committed. He called, and really, there was no way out for either of us. I can't fold this turn under these circumstances. When the 4 came on the river, I thought for sure he would show pocket 8's or Q8.

Lets say I have PT and PA, which as far as I know, doesn't work in real time on Titan. If i know the stat on this guy are:

Hands Vpip Pfr AF
60 46 8 0.6

that would make this a no brainer, right?

If these stats at least contain 100 hands, I would agree. But it would bother me, that Villian would have a very low AF and donks All-In on the Turn.

But when Puschkin say it was a good play, I believe it.

I looked up his stats afterwards in PT, and this is what they were. He also lost over $100 in those 60 hands, so I think he just wasn't very good.

You have given me cause for thought though. Against a tight player, I would have been beaten for sure. Makes it very hard to play poker when you have to consider that all the time.

My two cents/opinion:

With a large stack and KK, if you're going to push all-in or plan on investing a lot of money, make a very large raise preflop. Something like $10-12, or more. For one you reduce the risk of having to lose any money at all, two if someone re-raises you, you have a pretty good idea he's on AA.

And most importantly: When you raise a very large percentage of your stack, your opponent is ALWAYS making a mistake by calling without AA.

Anyway you may choose to play it weaker pre-flop to get callers, but you need to be able to fold the hand if you don't flop a monster or you want to play for a smaller pot. For a large pot, you want to flop a K, a straight draw, or a flush draw. (The value in the straight draw is often you'll be the only one with the K.)

If I'm not mistaken, the idea behind the short stack strategy is the fact it's unprofitable for your opponent to call you with a speculative hand, since he can only win so much from you and the odds of him actually getting a monster flop is very low.

Originally posted by aciddrop
The factor you have to take into consideration is, what did he call the original raise with? Preflop, he put 7BB in without any hesitation. Unless he had AA - QQ, that was pretty much a mistake, and a bad one, and I didn't consider at all that he would have those hands.

If he was sure he could stack you off if he hit a set with his PP the mistake isn't at all as big as you make it.. Apart from that I agree with you

I won't risk analysing the hand myself though.. one pair hands are where I got my biggest leak at the moment I think - would probably make a crying call on the turn as you did, but I'm not at all sure it's the right play - Letswait for an expert to arrive

Best regards,
Mugge

Yeah, interesting that this has aroused more comment.

I'm with Altruist here now. Raise more preflop, and take the money without any further action, or get a really, really bad call. I wasn't actually making a choice to keep people in the pot with the smaller bet here, I was just raising according to the SSS guide, as I had never played a big stack before, and this was an accident.

Even with a pocket pair, I don't think it could be right to call, because we don't both have 15 times the raise left in our stacks. Again, that isn't going to stop some people, but raising more preflop would make this move even worse.

As it happens, he was a worse player than me, and overvalued his QTs, not spades, so paid me off.

I am now playing BSS, so have a little more understanding of some of what was expressed in this thread. There is more at stake with the big stack, so it is easier to let go against aggression with marginal hands. With a short stack, KK is almost never a marginal hand.