Flushdraw

Wouldn't that depend on which street?
I've never thought of pot odds "backwards", like this, but it should be fairly straightforward.

Let's assume that villain holds a suited Ace, and the flop comes with two of that suit, with no straight outs.
OTF there are 9 outs -- let's assume that they're all good outs and you hold no blockers.
So from villain's point of view he has odds of 38:9 to hit the flush on the next street.
This is 4.2 : 1
To make the pot so villain is exactly breakeven on a $100 bet, the pot needs to be $320, so that when you bet he is faced with a pot of $420

If you take the turn into account it changes, but the principle is the same.

Cheers,
VS

Yea. I arrived at the same number.
Which means I should bet more.

dont bother with such thought processes. your opponent has a range of hands, not just a flush draw.
pick the bet size that works well for most of your hands vs most of his hands. and this will often be anywhere between 1/3 to 4/5 pot on the flop.

I agree that villain has a range of hands. 1/3 and 4/5 pot size is quite a difference in bet sizing.
What would be be the case when we're in a multiway pot? Shouldn't laying odds be an important factor?

the concept of "laying odds" is a very backward and primitive one, because it works with the assumption that you always have a made hand and your opponent always have a draw. But this is 100% untrue.

Smaller bet sizes allow you to bluff a lot more cheaply but causes you to extract less value with your best hands. Then the next question is to think about how often you/your opponent has different combinations of each type of hands.

For example, if you were the Preflop raise and the board came AK2, you would have an overwhelming advantage given that your opponent would have likely 3bet AA KK AK. This means that you can just bet a really small sizing with your entire range and he will not be able to do much against you. You could even mix in huge pot bets or overbets with certain types of hands and he cannot exploit your smaller bet sizing simply because he rarely has strong hands here and cannot start getting wild.

Second factor to think about is Stack:Pot Ratio. When stacks are shallower, it is not necessary to bet so large since you can easily get in stacks by the river. Also, you have less reverse implied odds (assuming your opponent has a draw and you have a made hand) so it's ok to "give him good odds". Multiway pots have lower SPRs and they also force players to have stronger continuation ranges. Both of these factors encourage a smaller % bet size in theory, although there are plenty of bad players who look at "pot odds" only even if it's 5way and call with bottom pair in an attempt to draw to 2-pair or trips. Vs such guys, feel free to make an exploitative increase in your bet size with your stronger hands to extract more value.

Just think for a second, how strong you would look, if you were potting the Flop 5way on a J97 board. I might even fold AJ here in this situation given how the pot better seems to clearly have 2-pair+ here very often. And if you were doing it with a hand like KJ or QJ it would be a massive mistake. So a 1/3 pot bet here even if it doesn't protect as well, could make some sense vs a tighter lineup.

Another consideration is to think about elasticity of ranges. There are elastic and inelastic boards. Those that are low and coordinated then to cause defenders to have more elastic ranges (people will call with all sorts of weak gutshots or overcards in an attempt to draw). Then there are boards with 2 high cards where defenders tend to have more static ranges. Would you call T9o on AK3 vs a 20% pot bet? I don't think most people would. But many people might call JTo on a 223 vs a 20% pot bet, or a A8 on a J97 board vs a 20% pot bet but fold vs a 80% pot bet.

Wow, very insightful. SPR is a difficult concept <30bb
I'll have to work on thinking in terms of ranges and then think about my sizing.

What status do I need to view your poker coaching thread?

Thanks!

Originally posted by dddq8842
Wow, very insightful. SPR is a difficult concept <30bb
I'll have to work on thinking in terms of ranges and then think about my sizing.

What status do I need to view your poker coaching thread?

Thanks!

I think that thread is inactive because I am no longer a coach with Pokerstrategy and that probably expired like 5 years ago.

i dont really actively play or coach anymore (when I do I charge some China Bosses between 500-800 USD per hour), and I am not really active here