Originally posted by ZeDawning
Hey man,I'm curious as to your objective on this exercise. I assume this is to make your postflop plays as balanced as you can vs unknown player/villian who plays balanced.
I've been working at my postflop plays recently and I'm also looking at lines to take vs unknown/good reg postflop.
My question is; does this range breakdown really help you achieve w/e you are trying to achieve?
I mean, you are looking at specific board textures on specific positions and are looking to x/r and x/c specific combos.
Would you really be able to recall these once you are in that situation?I would think that maybe it would be more useful to look at it in this way,
-Board? -Texture? -Position? -Initiative? -Villian range? -Our hand?
eg.
-Qh7c4d -Dry -No -Yes -SCs/Broadways/PPs -AJhhBest line to take:
Barrel F/T and give up on R if no A/K. Maybe barrel R if T gave an undercard (like 8/6) and R was a blank for a SC.
Why? -> Villian calling F/T is unlikely to fold R. Probably has a Qx which might not fold to a third barrel after calling twice.Something like this might make it easier to understand and remember when we are facing similar spots as these can apply to many positions.
Good thread anyways
I think it helps a lot, maybe you dont recall
The whole range but try to get as close to that.
He has approacj e.g raise upper gutshots
And set blockers, low fd and bdfd, so i guess it can be
Applied on most boards and positions and it will
Be close to good ratio.I think we should devide boards into categories
Like
1) Axx with fd
2) Axx dry
3) axx mono
4) low boardsSo first try analysing general boards and
Coming to specific. Then you realize that
Ranges doesnt change much for general
Boards.
Yeah, I think it helps to have an idea of what I can be doing with my entire range. Often it's transferable in different situations.
I find hand histories a little annoying and mostly a waste of time too. Great, you work out how to play 1% of your range [sarcasm]. I think it would be a lot more helpful if instead of them here there was 1-3 threads a day where coaches broke down ranges over a whole hand.
I got CREV today and thought I'd use it to work on some x/r ranges. But first I thought I better get some decent cbet ranges. Then I discovered how clueless my cbet ranges are. 
Further down the rabbit hole.
Originally posted by Dublimax
Quite a few but the most obvious ones are the Ax on AQx mono board.
You have top pair why would you turn that into a bluff?
Yeah thats not so great. A mistake there. Perhaps some of the mid pair/no kicker x/r are a questionable too.
BB v BTN
Flop: K:s9:d5d:d
A shit tonne of gutshots here.
Value raises
99 3
55 3
k9s 2
k9o 7
k5o 2
k5s 7
95s 2
Total 26 combos
Bluff raises
All suited gutshots minus flush draws
76,s 78s, 86s, JTs, QJs QTs 18 combos
A:s2:s-A:s8:s 7 combos
A:d2o-A:d8o 21 combos
QJo 12 combos
Total 58 combos
Other
half nut flush combos
Total 89 combos = 7.57% = 16.3% of cc range
Raising some of all the suited gutshots gives good board coverage while keeping the number of combos manageable. Having some backdoor nut flushes is always nice. Then the A:d offsuit hands just to have a hand that blocks some of his continuing hands (AK and nut flushes) and had no need to be betting future streets.
Then just one off suited gutshot to fill up the range.
Against some of the rarer tougher players it's probably a good idea to keep some stronger hands in a x/c range, but until they're proven to be I think raising is preferable. And as an exercise I think it's better to work with bigger ranges.
BTN cc v CUT RFI
CC range 13%
Flop J:s5:h5:s
Equity 51.5% Cut
Value raises
A5s 2 combos
65s 2 combos
Total 4 combos
Bluff raises
A:h2:h - A:h:7h 4 combos
KQs 4 combos
Total 8 combos
+ some nut flush draws
8% of cc range
Not much point raising quads. So only have a a few value combos. Rounded bluffs out wiht some bd/fd1 hands. And then some KQ that block and also has some ok equity v his top pair hands.
Only problem is finding bluffs with equity that can barrel turns. But it's not too bad. WE have hands that ccan barrel hearts/spades. Plus our KQ let us barrel all over cards K,Q & A. Plus on 9's and T's we'll also turn gutshots to barrel. So I think we can get away with it.
BB cc v EP rfi
BB cc 7.8%
Flop A:h9:c4:h
Value raises
99 3
A9s 2 combos
5 combos
With BB cc range so tight it's pretty hard to find anything with any equity on a board like this to use as bluffs. Apart from some bd/fd's I think we're better off as a default only raising one set and keeping our x/c range stronger.
So, I choose 99 instead of 44 to raise because it can cooler a few more sets and if we're going to lose some equity on turns then we might as well do it with the worse set.
Bluff raises
K:hQo 3 combos
Blocks his AK and nutflush combos
K:cQ:c, K:cJ:c, Q:cJ:c 3 combos
Some backdoor fd's, can turn gutshots
Might as well raise the remaining 4 combos of KQs and KJs to round out bluffs. Bock his top pairs and can turn some gutshots.
Total 10 combos
16% of cc range
Hi
I like this time your K95 ranges it has a
Little bit of everything and you dont turn
2nd pairs into bluff. I think it is a bit
Bluff heavy, you have 26 value so it should be
52 bluff but you have 79if i understood it
Right. I would reduce jqo.
I think we should raise flop with all value combos
On flop vs good reg also because the board
Is super drawy. Also i. Think that range protection
(Calling nuts on flop) isnt important with so wide
Ranges,agree?
Imo, it would help a lot if instead going to the
Next hand you analyse the same board e.g. Bu vs co and co vs mp to see if
You can still raise all value together with
Suited gs and bdfd and fd. We have less value combos
And less draws so i expect the result to be similar.
If it is similar for most pf range combinations then
We could apply this analyses in most cases and be close
To balanced. Otherwise i think it doesnt
Bring much.
I agree that hand evaluation by coatches should
Be for range not for specific hands it would be great.
Also how do you defend vs 3bet? Can you defend
Gto? I think we need to put in cr range
More combo draws instead of so many gs so that
We can shove it together with nuts. I would add all strong draws
And remove upper gs like jqs jts.
Also how do you play on turn or river
When flush comes? Currently % of flush combos
Is very low but if you add combo draws it will be better
Imo it would help if in the same time we
Define also c/c range besides c/r range
Because then you see if you have problems
With your c/c range. I think you do because it becomes
Too weak especially when flush completes.
Sp i think it doesnt make sense to define
Perfect c/r range if this way we have bad c/c range. This analyses would be
Important because c/c range is much bigger
Hi all, like this discussion type with all hand ranges 
here is analysed hand by me:
We open in MP 3BB with this range:
CO flats :
Flop: 9 
7 
5 
our range on flop:
green is bet/fold
red is bet/call
yellow is check/call
blue is check/fold
Would it be better to have and bet/3bet range?
second part is when MP opens 3BB and we flat in CO
flop is the same: 9 7 5
MP cbets about half pot:
our range (we are CO now):
green is raise/fold
red is raise/call
yellow is call
blue is fold
What is wrong with this ranges? What would you do different and why? Let's assume villain is a decent NL50 reg.
Hi brainer,
I like your idea of visulizing whole range.
Your ranges look unexploitable, but i dont like
The way you chose cbet combos.
You have only 15 value combos all other
Are semi bluffs.
I would cbet at least qq+ because we have
A lot of value and you can c/c
with
Tt jj.
When villian is raising you protect with sets and many very vulnerable
Bluff catchers also with many of them you
Block his bluffs (88, 66, T8). So villians bluffs have
A lot of equity vs your bluff catchers. Thats why i prefer
Bet qq+, would bet some more weak hands from c/c range.
I would also cbet blocker hands like
J9s 89s 78s because you can defend easier vs raise
They block nuts. 88,66 i would c/c.
I would 3bet 99 and 77 together with
A5s, 67s because they block nuts and
Are vulnerable.
When you are CO, i think you defend too
Wide on flop, just 5 combos fold. I would
Fold Aqo,it is hardly +ev to float it, would fold
Qjs.
You raise bluff heavy, bluffs should be 2x value
On flop. So if you fold qjs and flat AQs it is fine.
I would prefer not raising any combos on this board
Which is relatively dry to protect your call range which
Is weak and narrow. So i would raise turn all value and
66, a5s.
I like your poker skills GingerKid!
flop: 9 7 5
Here is edited chart:
total combos: 196
cbetting ~ 46%
bet/3bet: 12c
bet/call: 36c
bet/fold: 42c
check/call: 56c
check/fold: 50c
we check call too little, I really don't want to play with check/folding hands. Also I think now our check calling range is too weak ♦
So I made a more calling station mode chart (with just cbet ~ 36%):
total combos: 196
cbetting ~ 36%
bet/3bet: 12c
bet/call: 27c
bet/fold: 38c
check/call: 69c
check/fold: 50c
but still we are little exploitable by checking... when we check, we fold ~ 42% and it should be less than 33%. Can we just try to check call AJo?
Also I think we should 3bet not 99,77 but 77, 55 and bet call 99, because with 99 we block his 9x hands
total combos: 196
cbetting ~ 46%
bet/3bet: 12c
bet/call: 36c
bet/fold: 42ccheck/call: 56c
check/fold: 50cwe check call too little, I really don't want to play with check/folding hands. Also I think now our check calling range is too weak grin
When your range hits badly the board, as this one, and it hits better your opponents range, then it is totally fine to give up more hands by check/fold.
I tried many ways to make all ranges balanced, but the fact is that the most of your hands are weak, so if you put more weak hands in bet range then you are bluff heavy, and if you put more value hands into check/call range, again your bet range is weak.
Also, the boards where you hit badly as this one (low dry boards) occur very rare, so it is not that he is going to exploit you so much.
So I think this version is ok, since you now bet/fold 42c and defend 48c vs raise, so you fold now 46% vs raise, and our opponent needs around 60% FE with raise, so we can add more bluffs in our cbet range. I would defend 55% vs raise. So if you bet also AJo, you would b/f 54c and defend 48c. so you would fold 53% vs raise which is better.
This way also, you check/call 56c and check/fold 38c, which means you fold 39%, seems to bet unexploitable (exept he bets 1/2 pot or less).
Regarding check/call range, I would:
give up on turn AKo, AQo = 24c
defend 32c
So we give up 42% on turn which is ok (well could defend few more combos AK to make it perfect, but I think it is not a problem to sometimes fold a bit more % and sometimes call a bit more %).
River I would fold 66, 88 = 12c (blocks only his bluffs, so it is worse bluff catcher)
I defend JJ, TT, T9s, 56s = 20c (56s, T9s block his nuts so it is good bluff catcher).
Again we fold close to 40% river.
Off course this is all on blank runout, sometimes A,K, Q will come on turn so we improve, or we complete draws by river so it is not that the range is so weak.
but still we are little exploitable by checking... when we check, we fold ~ 42% and it should be less than 33%. Can we just try to check call AJo?
When I play vs reg and see that he has balanced check range, I like to bet 1/3 Pot size, so he needs to defend much more than he planned, so it means he needs to bluff raise with his combos from fold range (and it is actually buttom of his range), so it seems to be impossible to defend enough vs that.
Why do you say it needs to bet less than 33%? If he bets 70% it should be 40%, and if he bets 1/2 then 33%, so you assume all people bet 1/2 pot size?
total combos: 196
cbetting ~ 46%
bet/3bet: 12c
bet/call: 36c
bet/fold: 42c
check/call: 56c
check/fold: 50c
The last version looks the best to me. Would rather actually c/c QQ instead of AA. The reason is that with AA you block many of his bluffs which you hope that he bets (Ax, Kx hands). Or cbet AA, QQ, and bluff catch KK (because KK needs less protection than QQ).
Originally posted by wealthybrainer
Do you cold call Co vs MP ATs,KTs,QTs vs decent reg?
I call in addition to your range 78s because it is also playable hand IP.
I 3bet KJo, KQo, AJo, and value QQ+, AK CO vs MP, so I fold QTs, KTs, ATs.
Wanted to ask you about your 3bet range CO vs MP?
I am not sure if it is better to 3bet KJo, KQo, AJo (block his 4bet value and bluff range, also and call range) but the problem is that it is dominated and unplayable postflop, or to 3bet suited gappers like 79s, 68s, T8s .. ?
I 3bet CO vs MP: KQo, AJo, KJo,87s,76s,65s. It plays good on different boards but generally IP I 3bet broadways because I can check back and see another card and OOP I 3bet suited connectors mostly due to I can check raise as semi-bluff.
How to find out if AJo is more profitable bet/fold than check/fold? Because balancing range on a paper is one thing but another thing that we should play the most profitable way.
Originally posted by GingerKid
Hi
I like this time your K95 ranges it has a
Little bit of everything and you dont turn
2nd pairs into bluff. I think it is a bit
Bluff heavy, you have 26 value so it should be
52 bluff but you have 79if i understood it
Right. I would reduce jqo.
I think we should raise flop with all value combos
On flop vs good reg also because the board
Is super drawy. Also i. Think that range protection
(Calling nuts on flop) isnt important with so wide
Ranges,agree?
Yeah, looks like I chucked a few extra bluffs in accidently. We can raise another bluff for every 2.3 nut flush according to Janda, so a couple extra isn't a problem.
Against someone who is capable of overbetting blank turns with a wide range after a drawy flop, if we don't have some strong hands in our x/c range, we're going to be in a tough spot. This flop isn't too bad (although still pretty bad) because we have a few gutshots that hit the board quite wide in our x/c range, but imagine say a flop comes down 9:dT:d8:s and you x/c the flop OOP. Turn comes blank 3:h and now villain bets 2x pot. Villains AT+ is effectively the nuts. That's a massive overbetting range he can have.
I guess I might as well do the whole x/c x/r range. I was just doing the x/r raise to specifically work on that, because I find it hard sometimes to quickly work out what bluffs I want to use as I'm playing.
Originally posted by wealthybrainer
What is wrong with this ranges? What would you do different and why? Let's assume villain is a decent NL50 reg.One thing I think you missed is having a x/r range?
I would x/r mid set and x/c top set. I would also x/r 97s. This lets us x/r some bluffs and play more hands profitably. Whilst also strengthening our checking range.
I would cbet rather than x/c top pair/weak kicker hands because they are vulnerable to overcards.On this flop, against ranges I used, the PFR has 46.2% equity, which is pretty bad.
Originally posted by wealthybrainer
Do you cold call Co vs MP ATs,KTs,QTs vs decent reg?I call ATs and more suited aces. I would 3bet KTs, QTs.
Originally posted by GingerKid
Originally posted by wealthybrainer
Do you cold call Co vs MP ATs,KTs,QTs vs decent reg?I call in addition to your range 78s because it is also playable hand IP.
I 3bet KJo, KQo, AJo, and value QQ+, AK CO vs MP, so I fold QTs, KTs, ATs.Wanted to ask you about your 3bet range CO vs MP?
I am not sure if it is better to 3bet KJo, KQo, AJo (block his 4bet value and bluff range, also and call range) but the problem is that it is dominated and unplayable postflop, or to 3bet suited gappers like 79s, 68s, T8s .. ?
I 3bet them all... well down to T8s and KQo 
I don't mind playing AJo, KQo in a 3b pot IP. I think KJo is a little weak. OOP it's not fun.
Originally posted by wealthybrainer
I 3bet CO vs MP: KQo, AJo, KJo,87s,76s,65s. It plays good on different boards but generally IP I 3bet broadways because I can check back and see another card and OOP I 3bet suited connectors mostly due to I can check raise as semi-bluff.
Ok, thanks, I like it, I will take it the same if you don't mind 
We can make a contract, that I am able to use it vs all people but not vs you