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Range construction breakdowns

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x/c w AA:
We have topset. Its difficult to extract value from villain when we have most of his TPs blocked. Its better to allow him to stab w his bluffs and get some value through that.

x/c w FDs:
Eh well, I probably end up betting ingame
But I do like to strengthen my x/c range, so I could x/r T atleast 30% of the time. This way, ppl aren't going to profitably double barrel me.

My range:
My preflop range changes every 2 weeks :facepalm:
But mine at max as default would probably be @ 12% and a flatting range @ 8%. Since I dont have a 5bet bluff range, 15% 3bet makes me vulnerable to 4bets.


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wealthybrainer
Joined: 01.05.2013

Originally posted by ZeDawning
x/c w AA:
We have topset. Its difficult to extract value from villain when we have most of his TPs blocked. Its better to allow him to stab w his bluffs and get some value through that.

I really dislike slowplaying AA... We exactly should want to fold some equity and get value from draws as much as we can, also we shouldn't be bothered that we block top pair as he has many calling draws, some strong made hands.


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Its not about slowplaying AA. Its about slowplaying topset in a board where the villain cannot have overpairs nor many TPs to generate value for us.

There are spots which are close. But this isn't (imo). Villain doesn't have too much equity vs us. The best hand which comes to mind is KQss, which has like 33% equity vs us.

Draws would most likely double barrel (as our perceived range might be more KK,QQ,Jx) to get FE and might be forced to call our x/shove T, because they are priced in.
We still get atleast 1 street of value from bluffs at times.

I guess we would have to disagree on this one


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

I really dislike slowplaying AA... We exactly should want to fold some equity and get value from draws as much as we can, also we shouldn't be bothered that we block top pair as he has many calling draws, some strong made hands.

Which equity do you want to fold exactly? The equity from hands which are drawing dead vs you, or the equity from hands which can outdraw your hand? If you want to fold equity from gutshots, fd, do you think you can really fold those hand with only bet on flop? If you check, do you think that regular checks behind with his draws and that you lose value? Even if he does for some balance purpuse, it is still very small % of his draws, but also he bets some air hands which he would otherwise fold vs your cbet. So I check AA not only to protect my check range but also because it is likely higher EV. You can play c/r on draw heavy board as this one, or c/c flop and turn and c/r river on dry board. This way you reduce EV of his bluffs.

Also why do you think betting hands for 3 streets of value only? I assume we could also bet A6s just on flop and start check calling on turn and river if the board is good

cbet flop with weak top pairs, and c/c down is better vs villians who float flop a lot and fire turn wide, so you punish him for that maximally. We are here discussing how do we play vs good reg who doesnt have leaks in general.
I cbet only hands that can bet 3 streets for value, because if I only cbet one street, I make his range stronger on turn, and turn my hand into bluff catcher on turn vs stronger range, compared to the range which bets flop. Another important disadvantage is that once you cbet flop, and villian raises, your hand is a pure weak bluff catcher and he can raise more effectively vs such a range, compared when you have only 3 streets value range (polarized range).
Advantage of check on flop is that you protect your check range. You will want to check Jx, QQ, KK and there are many combos of that, so you need to protect this range with some Ax hands which can cc down, and you put AA in that range to protect vs large overbets. Also you cant cbet whole range here (if you do, you would be bluff heavy), so it means you would have to c/f decent amount of hands that totally missed, and if you dont put cc hands in your check range, his bluffs will have very nice EV once you c/f.


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wealthybrainer
Joined: 01.05.2013

well I would x/r Aces not cbet. You have good arguments about slowplaying but on this spot I would click raise button after getting a bet from villain :f_biggrin:

will post another range on different board :)


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

I would also not cc AA on draw heavy board as this one. I would c/r it, and would probably c/r all sets (all hands strong enough to play for stacks). If i would know that after I only c/c on draw heavy texture that villian makes large bets and overbets vs my cappt range, then I would c/c AA also on draw heavy board because EV will increase once he starts overbetting.


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wealthybrainer
Joined: 01.05.2013

the range we have talked about:
BTN opens 2bb, SB 3bets to 7bb, BTN calls 5bb

flop: A Heart J Spade 5 Spade

I see one problem, we have too strong betting range and villain can fold too much?

bet fold: GS and 2 cards to flush (KQ,KT, heart suited junk) (27combos)
bet value: FD(13), TP+(47combos)


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KTU
KTU
Joined: 24.01.2007

good thread :)


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wealthybrainer
Joined: 01.05.2013

Originally posted by KTU
good thread :)

Share your knowledge, write what you think about ranges


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wealthybrainer
Joined: 01.05.2013

bet fold: GS and 2 cards to flush (KQ,KT, heart suited junk) (27combos)
bet value: FD(13), TP+(47combos)

FD should go bet bluff range so
bet fold: GS, FD(13) and 2 cards to flush (KQ,KT, heart suited junk) (40combos)
bet value: TP+(34combos)

still I think our betting range would have too many value hands. Other opinions on that?

and I really don't like x/c TT, better x/f I think.
Is x/c with Jx (not QJ) too weak also?


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wealthybrainer
Joined: 01.05.2013

New range:
we in MP open and only BTN flats
flop: K :spade: 9 :diamond: 7 :spade:

red - bet value - AA, AK, 97s(two pair), monster draws JsTs, Ts8s (22c, 10.43%)
green - bet bluff - Adxd, GS, backdoor flushdraws (40c, 18.96%)
yellow - check/call - pairs higher than 9, KK (48c 22.75%)
orange - check/raise value - Asxs, 99, 77 (16c, 7.58%)
purple - check/raise bluff - pairs 9x,7x (20c, 9.48%)
blue - x/f (65c 30.81%)


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My thoughts:

CB - Set(9) 2p(2) AA(6) FD(18) SD(8) TP(39)= 82
- GS(9) 9x(8) PP(24) 7x(9) Bckdr.FD(9) = 59
= 141 combos
x/f - 70 combos

No check call/raise range in this texture for me.


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jules97
Joined: 10.06.2012

Originally posted by wealthybrainer
New range:
we in MP open and only BTN flats
flop: K :spade: 9 :diamond: 7 :spade:

red - bet value - AA, AK, 97s(two pair), monster draws JsTs, Ts8s (22c, 10.43%)
green - bet bluff - Adxd, GS, backdoor flushdraws (40c, 18.96%)
yellow - check/call - pairs higher than 9, KK (48c 22.75%)
orange - check/raise value - Asxs, 99, 77 (16c, 7.58%)
purple - check/raise bluff - pairs 9x,7x (20c, 9.48%)
blue - x/f (65c 30.81%)

mines pretty similar, some differences are:
I often like to cbet 77 here, so i can x/r more turns after cbetting the flop.
I like to x/c rather than cbet a few combos of my stronger A:sX:s so I have some nut flushes in my x/c range.
I like to x/r a few gutshots


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wealthybrainer
Joined: 01.05.2013

MP open vs BTN flat
flop: K :diamond: 9 :spade: 7 :spade:
MP cbets, BTN calls
turn: 8 :heart:

what to do as MP?

Spoiler

there are only Axs two combos each ->A :diamond:X :diamond: and A :spade: X :spade: (spades are green)
AJo and AQo are 6 combos each with spade

don't know if it's good... not well balanced:
red - cbet -> 23c (31.94%)
green - cbet bluff -> 13c (18.06%)
orange - x/r -> 8c (11.11%)
purple - x/r bluff -> 8c(11.11%)
blue - x/f -> 20c(27.78%)

maybe I should x/r bluff AJ (there are just 6combos - one spade each combo)
and x/c with J9s,T9s,T8s, AK?

**********

As BTN:

Spoiler

ATs is one combo A :spade:T :spade:
KQs is one combo call (K :spade: Q :spade:)
A :spade:J :spade: and A :spade:Q :spade: are calls too

red - raise-> 4c (7.55%)
green - raise bluff -> 6c (11.32%)
yellow - call -> 24c (45.28%)
blue - fold -> 19c(35.85%)


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