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GGpoker Rush&Cash (micro) PLO leaderboard

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Khiiniau
Joined: 21.08.2008

Unfortunately I couldn’t watch yesterday online Kyyberis’ stream where he spoke about leaderboard playing. Just finished watching it recorded and I want to share some of my thoughts about GG-leaderboard in micro PLO R&C. I hope that this is interesting for other members also. Please feel free to comment and correct my thoughts and rough calculations.

Points are earned: Fold +1, call +3, bet/raise +5. Win Cash Drop Hand +10. During R&C Happy Hour 22:00-23:59 (UTC-8) double points. Points are capped to max 20 per hand. I don’t know if winning hand at BB when nobody raised gives any points, preflop limp is call and gives 3 points.

In R&C PLO2 200 participants are paid $50-0,6. PLO5 100 paid $78-1,5 etc. Places paid and prizes may be bigger if lot of players.
R&C PLO2 top10 normally has 60000-25000 points.

This is Top10 from 14.5.2024. To get smallest prize $0,6 about 2500 points needed. For $2 prize about 6500 points needed.

I took one 24h period when played 1169 hands 2-tabling PLO2 R&C during Leaderboard day that started 0:00 UTC-8 after playing 132 minutes and got 2885 points just enough to be in top 200 with 60c prize. My average hands per hour during this month is 530, 265 hands per hour per table. My VPIP is very low, now only 17,9 which gives 209 played hands, 13,8 points per played hand.

Winner in that table is 4-tabling with VPIP 46 and tries to get 20 points from every hand played that is often reached by opening 4c, bet 2c, bet 2c, bet 2c, total minimum cost to get 20 points is 10c/5bb. During HH enough need only to open and bet once. He rarely folds to preflop 3bet so he has already 8 points. Always donks flop with 1bb getting 5 more points, calls if raised if his hands has any potential and gets 3 points and now he has already 16 points, missing 4 points easy to get at turn, again 1bb donk and continues calling or raise if he has a hand.

Let’s take 16 points for average of played hand so he needs about 3600 played hands, with VPIP46 8000 total hands (if all hands outside of HH). 4-tabling gives to him about 940 hands per hour so he has to play about 8,5h/day. 10c per hand makes already $360 + calls when raised makes it easily over $500. If average pot is 40c -> $1440 in 3600 hands how many pots this kind of guy can win? Ofcourse when he really has a hand he starts to play aggressively from turn.

I will post some interesting hands with LB-players when get them. Had one was just today. That guy don’t play everyday but always in top 5 when plays. Starts to play with minimum 20bb bin, if wins takes money home if reaches close to 100bb, VPIP over 60, PFR over 40. Never seen him opening bigger than 2bb, often folds if 3betted but ready to shove aces so I 3bet him quite often. This time he had aces that were stronger than mine, got A-5 at river, luckily he had only 20,5bb stack. Nothing interesting in that hand so I don’t post it.


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Khiiniau
Joined: 21.08.2008

Next 24h leaderboard day just ended. Collected over 7000 points so $2 prize is coming. To reach 10th place 3x points needed, for 1st place 8x. Practically for me impossible to reach top 10 because now I played quite a maximum time what I can during 24h, 324 minutes.


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PokerSpass
Joined: 05.02.2006

Hello from Austria,
I am also playing RC-PLO2 since 9.May and are new at PLO. Maybe I make also a PLO-Blog, but must learn better in PLO and english. :-)

I earned all 8 days low LB-Money (max. was 2,50 with 2.706 Hands) with 2 tabeling.

One of the LB-Dominators-Maniacs from russia = Olexxx. But he hits and hits, I saw him at 2 days with 25 Buy-ins at the tabels. But my main focus is to getting better and better, and move up in the limits ... therefore my goal is to play min. 50.000 a limit,with good winnings.


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Khiiniau
Joined: 21.08.2008

Yes, he is a grazy guy, stats about 65/60/60, always pot-pot-pot every street if not raised. After loosing some bins to me he has started to play against me quite carefully with pure air.


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Timmaywin
Joined: 23.02.2010

The leaderboard prizes are not worth it if you ask me.

Just play your best poker and win money that way and consider the leaderboard money an extra.

I mean, basically, you are making -ev plays for leaderboard points and if you do that enough times (even when minbetting), that evens out the prize you get for this...


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Khiiniau
Joined: 21.08.2008

Originally posted by Timmaywin
Just play your best poker and win money that way and consider the leaderboard money an extra.

That is what I try to do, small prizes from LB are just nice addition to bankroll. I could never 4-table 8 hours/day with 50+ VPIP/PFR to get those top 3 prizes.


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Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

As I said in the stream, unless the rules are really odd or the pool really small, just play good poker as default. If opponents use different tactics, just adjust to them.

Couple years ago I calculated in stream whether it's worth it to minbet often postflop for leaderboard points at GG R&C, as there was one reg who did that. The answer was that the money value for those extra points was not even close to the amount of money he lost with those minbets. I am quite sure that 100% of those who adjust their strategy at micros for leaderboards have not thought the strategy throughly for EV.

It's also interesting to see that the leaderboard money is highest in terms of bb's at PLO2. But to get to the top, you need to 4 table a lot.

edit: corrected wrong numbers


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Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

I quickly looked that you get 13p per hand, but it was VPIP hands. I tested it, 4 tabled for an hour and got 750 hands, 2,5K points.

Double points on last 2 hours, that would make 65K points for whole 24h grind. For 50K points you would need "just" 18h with happy hour.

At western countries I think there are some other way to get more than $2,5/h. In Finland you can look around for empty bottles and cans and probably make more money than that. But if you have a lot of free time and do that for a challenge, why not.

There was one reg who minbetted almost every time oop post flop or ip if I checked. And folded about +90% of times to a raise. Most likely lost in that hour more than he got value for the points. Not a good strategy. Problem with minbetting is that either it's balanced, and you lose a lot of value for your good hands or it's unbalanced and you minimize the FE for bluffs and versus raise you have to fold almost always.


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Timmaywin
Joined: 23.02.2010

Originally posted by Kyyberi
At western countries I think there are some other way to get more than $2,5/h. In Finland you can look around for empty bottles and cans and probably make more money than that. But if you have a lot of free time and do that for a challenge, why not.

HAHAHAHA, good one, made me laugh!

Also a plus side: you get to fight bums for the loot!
Maybe they should increase the amount of money that a can/bottle is worth, to get higher $$/hour while grinding waste baskets in local parks.... :f_tongue:


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Khiiniau
Joined: 21.08.2008

Originally posted by Kyyberi
As I said in the stream, unless the rules are really odd or the pool really small, just play good poker as default. If opponents use different tactics, just adjust to them.

Yes, this is the most importing thing when you have recognized that villain plays mainly for LB points. I have marked all those who are regularly in Top20. Roughly speaking about half of them clearly play mainly for points, 3-5 OK players (who still may open 2bb at EP with monsters), 1-2 wise maniacs and 1-2 grazy maniacs.


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Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

Played some more during the happy hours. Got total of 2,7K hands, 13,6K points and $4 money. That's 7,4bb/100 boost to winrate.

If you play 750hands/hour, it would mean 13500 hands to get 50K points and win the leaderboard. In that case the leaderboard money would be 19bb/100 boost to winrate.

In my opinion the games were good. It's not a surprise that at the lowest level the opponents are not that good. Pretty much all of them are one dimensional, meaning that they have one way to play and they stick to it. They don't adjust. Once you get the info and adjust yourself a little, you should be making money without problems. Difference to other PLO2 pools is that you have quite a lot FE in certain spots. There are call happy players of course, but there are also quite a lot of fold-to-barrell-happy players. And fold-to-river-bet-happy players. If they call you, check if it's a legimitate hand. If not, make a note.


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Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

One thing I noticed is that in the very end some players start to loosen up a lot to get points for the next tier. I don't think that's a good strategy.

Once you start to loosen up, you give away EV. After all, if that looser strategy would be more +EV, you would use it all the time, right? Today I tested PLO5, and there were two regs with VPIP less than 20, suddenly in the last 30min they started to get way more points than me. So they started to open and raise a lot more than usually. They saw that their current tier was compromised, so they started to fight for it. The payout difference was $1, 20bb's.

If they change their straetgy for 300 hands, and they play around 60-70 of those, the leaderboard money they are fighting is 0,3bb per played hand. If they lose 1bb for every 3 hands, it's about break even. If they lose more, it's -EV to fight for it.

I would say that it's clearly -EV for them. Don't change your strategy, unless the payout difference is significant.


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Khiiniau
Joined: 21.08.2008

Here is a good example how a regular LB Top 10 guys pays first 10c to get 20 points and donates 10 more:f_tongue:

GG Poker - $0.02 PL Hi FAST (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

BTN: $1.12 (56 bb)
SB: $7.15 (357.5 bb)
BB: $3.20 (160 bb)
UTG: $3.29 (164.5 bb)
MP: $6.14 (307 bb)
Hero (CO): $2.02 (101 bb)

SB posts $0.01, BB posts $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K♣: 3♠: A♠: 9♣:
UTG raises to $0.04, fold, Hero calls $0.04, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.11, 2 players) T♠: 5♣: J♥:
UTG bets $0.02, Hero calls $0.02

Turn: ($0.15, 2 players) 6♠:
UTG bets $0.02, Hero calls $0.02

River: ($0.19, 2 players) K♠:
UTG bets $0.02, Hero raises to $0.14, UTG calls $0.12

Results: $0.47 pot ($0.02 rake)
Final Board: T♠: 5♣: J♥: 6♠: K♠:

Hero shows K♣: 3♠: A♠: 9♣:: (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 54%, Flop 43%, Turn 33%)

UTG shows 7♥: 7♠: 5♠: 8♠:: (Flush, King High)
(Pre 46%, Flop 57%, Turn 68%)

Hero wins $0.45


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Coach
Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

That's the problem with minbetting. When you raise river, he doesn't know what to do with small flush, as that minbet is surely raised every now and then. To be fair, I think that in the lowest stakes that minbet might have more FE than we think. But versus a player who knows that most of minbet range is air and fights back, the points won't make up the lost $$$ during the day. And also minbet gives every draw a +EV call, which is not good either.


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