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Qq Micro Milions

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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Beautiful post! :]

I am reading this carefully now. Lets, as you say, not argue over variable variable names. But we can still discuss them. Percentages are not good to have in the formulas (or the names). This would require numerical factors of 0.01 and 100 for the formulas to be correct. Probabilities are better.

The first term in your formula is clear. Our net win in this scenario (he folds) is exactly what you say. This assumes that you put the baseline at our stack before the decision to shove.

The other two scenarios must then also be calculated as net results w r t the same baseline. We either stand to win net the current pot (including his last raise) plus the amount he is forced to call with if we push (say 100 000 in the pot + 300 000, which equals our remaining stack, totally 400 000). Or, we stand to lose our remaining stack (still 300 000). This is all with respect to our baseline.

The probability of winning, net from the baseline, 400 000 is 0.4.

The probability of losing, net from the baseline, 300 000 is 1 - 0.4 = 0.6.

Final cEv = 0.32 * 100000 (fold equity) + 0.68*0.4*400 000(we win) - 0.68*0.6*300 000(we lose) = 32 000 + 108 800 - 122 400 = 140 800 - 122 400 = 18 400.

(As a minor corollary, we should shove.)

When he calls, we expect to make 0.4 * 660000 = 264000 from just winning the pot.

This is where I believe that you go wrong. This number is the expected stack if he calls. If my guess is correct, you mix apples and pears in your formula.

/Johan


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TJtheTJ
Joined: 12.10.2011

Beautiful post!

tyty, you're doing quite a good job yourself!

This is where I believe that you go wrong. This number is the expected stack if he calls. If my guess is correct, you mix apples and pears in your formula.

Well that's basically the same thing. Since we shoved, we have 0 chips left. So that would be the stack we expect to end up with. So when we get called we expect to lose 36000 chips, which can be found by subtracting this 'expected stack when called' from the amount we actually had, which was 300000.

We really are just doing the same thing, except we're using different terms. ;)

This part of the formula:

(%equity * pot - amount put in)

is basically the same as, using terms closer to the once you were using:

(%equity * stack if we win - stack we had before shoving)

Final thing I need to address now:

The probability of losing, net from the baseline, 300 000 is 1 - 0.4 = 0.6.

That does seem like the logical thing to do, yes. However, this is irrelevant. All we need to know is our pot equity, which is 40%. We expect to end up with 264000 if we get called. From that we can already deduct that we expect to lose chips if we get called because we had 300000 before we shoved. This is denoted in the formula by subtracting the stack we had before shoving from our expected stack, like I already mentioned above in this post.

Therefore, there is no need to put the 60% of the time we're going to lose in the equation, because this is already automatically done because we calculate our pot equity. Because we win 40% of the time, we lose 60% of the time.

I hope I'm making sense!


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Since we don't arrive at the same numerical answer, I'll ask the judge to have a look at this tread again. I am really dizzy. :)

Judge, please use these numbers:

Current pot = 100 000 (before any shove)
Our remaining stack = 300 000(before any shove)
(Our opponent has us covered.)

The opponent will call with probability 0.68,
and accordingly fold with probability 0.32

Our equity versus his calling range is 0.4.

/Johan = :f_confused:


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TJtheTJ
Joined: 12.10.2011

We'll see what they have to say :)


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masa9
Joined: 23.11.2010

no one who is 'solid player' 3b/folds JJ, TT and AQ here. all the math stuff is cool, but this is superstd spot.


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ronekinky
Joined: 25.04.2008

I would only fold QQ here if i have a read that villain a big nit.


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JohnTheGreatest
Joined: 28.01.2010

Hi, bozhurin! :)

Any stats on villain? This would help a bit more.


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bozhurin
Joined: 17.04.2010

I cant find the hand now bu i think it was something like 10/7 VPIP/PFR.Actually we had a hand 7-8 hands ago which makes me think that he is so tight.Both of us had around 25-30bb.He raise from CO i was SB with AK and 3bet him he just call /previous orbit i was 3-bet him on bluff /.After that we have showdown and he had AK too.So this guy dont 4-bet me with AK in battle of the blinds .and I 3-bet him 2 times in 2 orbits.That is why i think he can be mega tight.


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JohnTheGreatest
Joined: 28.01.2010

Originally posted by bozhurin
I cant find the hand now bu i think it was something like 10/7 VPIP/PFR.Actually we had a hand 7-8 hands ago which makes me think that he is so tight.Both of us had around 25-30bb.He raise from CO i was SB with AK and 3bet him he just call /previous orbit i was 3-bet him on bluff /.After that we have showdown and he had AK too.So this guy dont 4-bet me with AK in battle of the blinds .and I 3-bet him 2 times in 2 orbits.That is why i think he can be mega tight.

Well, tough spot, but given your info and reads I might be tmpted to make good lay down with QQ here after he 3bets you. So - I' d fold QQ here and keep playing the tourney. ;)

* Very interested what coach Tiltberger will say, at least I' m hoping he will give his point of view. :)


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Tiltberger
Joined: 23.06.2005

Hey!

I didn't calculatte it through!
But with 30bbs and the given 3betting range its clearly a shove imo!

I'm a little bit confused because of the ton of formulas here!
what was your overall conclusion? fold or shove?

Greets,
Tiltberger


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TJtheTJ
Joined: 12.10.2011

Shove because I put in a wrong number :facepalm:

It's a pretty clear shove, even.


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