Skipping through the limits

Hey there Bart,

I would like to help you improve your mindset :).

Could you please describe in detail which mindset problems do you have? Do you have any motivation problems? Any productivity problems?

If you could also write an overview of what your usual day looks like, that would be super awesome and we could take a loot at what we can optimize ;).

Looking forward to hearing from you soon!

-Primož

Originally posted by ErikStenqvist

What i suggest that you do is map out all you different areas of tilt. Then chose one issue which you think is the most important one and you make it you mission to remove that from your game. It can seem a bit overwhelming to address all of these issues at once, but remember that the only way you will solve them is one at a time and by putting the work in. Try to have the eye on the prize and not jump around looking for a quick fix. Hard work is what pays off. and work we put in on making ourselves happier, mentally stronger and kinder people will pay off for life. And it starts with something as easy as taking one issue of tilt in poker and dig into it.

Cheers and keep up the good work!

Yes I think it is a good idea that I'll list all my tilt issues and try to solve it one issue at the time in order of importance.

Hate to lose tilt

I am a very competitive person by nature. I remember losing a chess match for the club championship when I was seven. I lost and went to the toilet and cried. Today if I lose big at poker I'll sometimes lay down in bed and feel tears in my eyes. And where at chess I was only angry with myself, at poker I'm getting angry at the "donkeys" who keep sucking out. (while I know mathematically they are supposed to do just that)
Hate to lose can be a bless and a burden. For me at the moment it is more of a burden, because I tend to drop in stakes where I can win 8/10 sessions while sacrificing part of my potential hourly.
I need to channel this hate to lose trait and let it work to my advantage.
I have some ideas but will work those out when I'll address this issue.

Running bad tilt

When I'm in a downswing my tilt problem is the worst. For example last december I lost 10 buy-ins over 60k hands when according to EV I should have won around 40 buy-ins. Games were clearly good but I decided to change sites. The run bad was effecting my daily mood too much for me to handle. So I didn't put much volume in the rest of the month, while games can be pretty juicy during the holiday season.
During a period of run bad, tilt accumulates quickly and I get angry sooner in a session. I tend to book wins and check results way too frequently.
When it gets really bad I become lethargic and am not able to play my A-game at all, not even B most of the time.
At the moment I have not a lot of ideas to solve this issue. I think I'll need to disconnect my self from results somehow. But this will be difficult for me.

Entitlement tilt

"WTF this fish sits in, puts a bad beat on me and leaves the table. I'm gonna hunt him down until I have my money back and then some. "
This happens at least a couple of times a week. I have this more with fish than with regulars although the double up and leave regs can be annoying. I feel entitled to get the fish his money because I put a lot of work and effort into this game and he is just here to gamboool.
Also I don't like the fact that he will now not only donate his but also "my money" to another regular. But thinking more deeply about this I can see why it is flawed, because in the long run it will happen just as much the other way around.
Still need to address this. I think looking at it from the perspective of the recreational player is a good idea.

Injustice tilt

I have thoughts like "the world is against me", "it just isn't fair", "I'm the unluckiest person on the face of the earth" etc.
Only because I have some bad luck at a game with a big chance element in it while playing it on a daily basis.
But being born in western Europe I think I was dealt aces to start with. Only need to play my hand well. But feeling sorry for myself won't cut it. I need to stop this BS, man up and see things in perspective.
If I would have run as bad at the same scale as I run hot at the beginning of my career I wouldn't even play this game anymore.
More over if I look at long term graphs it really isn't that bad. I have seen graphs from people running much much worse than me.
So issue solved? No, I'll definitively have those thoughts again. But writing some things down and look at it while it happens can potentially help I think.

Desperation tilt

If things don't go well and I'm playing bad I can feel desperate. I think I'm never able to win again. Feeling numb, lethargic, sometimes I even think I'll go crazy, laughing about it but not in a healthy way.
In this state of mind, that is certainly not healthy, I can also suddenly move up in limits, spew stacks away and don't even care anymore because I think "ok lets go broke and be done with this game forever"
Luckily this only has happened a couple of times so far in my career, but nevertheless it should be dealt with asap so it won't happen ever again!

I think I'll try to deal with the desperation tilt first. Although it is not the most frequent, it is clearly the most dangerous.
Will begin working on that tomorrow.

That's it for now

Thanks Erik for dropping by and helping out.

Schnitzel :f_biggrin:, I certainly would like help to improve my mindset.
I'll answer your questions later today!

Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch
Hey there Bart,

I would like to help you improve your mindset :).

Could you please describe in detail which mindset problems do you have? Do you have any motivation problems? Any productivity problems?

If you could also write an overview of what your usual day looks like, that would be super awesome and we could take a loot at what we can optimize ;).

Looking forward to hearing from you soon!

-Primož

Hi Primož,

I can certainly use some help to improve my mindset.

A lot of the time I make plans and set goals. After this I have some short burst of inspiration but always fail to keep it up after the first set-back. This can be after one week, two weeks but at most a month.
Also the inspiration is pretty high in the first days or week but always drops after that. So with low inspiration and a set back I'll throw in the towel.
I think we can conclude I have some motivational problems. The main one being not to be able to deal with setbacks. Also I hope to find some inspiration that last a bit longer so I can develop some good habits.

So most of my goals failed the last couple of years.
One exception is going to the gym. I'm going now 3 times a week for more than a year. This is because someone comes to my house after his work and than we go to the gym together.
I lost 12 kg which I'm proud of. I need to lose about 10 kg more and for that I need to improve my eating habits because I'm around the same weight now for 6 months. I eat 2 big meals a day and 1 or 2 small ones. I'm considering making that 1 big meal and 3 small ones. And snack less or buy more healthy snacks. I am confident that I'll get there this summer. After that it will be a challenge not to gain too much next winter season.

Productivity is not optimal either. I waste quite some time through email, news and lurking around the forums. It is a way for me to procrastinate. Time flies by but then my girlfriend comes home from work and I think "damn, this was not a very productive afternoon."
I grind mostly in the evening and at night and volume is ok at the moment.
I have 2 evenings off to spend time with my girlfriend. And spend 1 evening with friends but not every week so I play 4/5 evenings and nights usually and sometimes in the afternoon if I feel like it.
But mostly I want to use the afternoon to study and I think big improvements can be made here. I'm studying way too passively, watching some video or reading some book / strategy forum. But the last book that I really studied with notes etc. was NLHE Theory & Practice about 5 years ago. The first time I made notes on a video was today from an Oblioo vid. The process is not optimal yet but at least it is a start.
I realize that if I want to ever make it back to 200nl I need to put in a lot of hard work.

Sleeping could be better too. I go to bed 3-4 am and get out between 11 and 12. But often I can't sleep for some time and wake up still tired. If that happens I'll have a low energy level for the day and have a hard time being productive. On the other hand if I have a productive and busy day, I sleep pretty well most of the time. So it is a bit chicken and egg.
I hope to develop some good habits so my days get more productive and that could solve my sleeping problems. Also some routine to clear my mind before going to bed could help.

That's what I can think of for now, looking forward to work with you on these issues this month!

Originally posted by bartjuh
Productivity is not optimal either. I waste quite some time through email, news and lurking around the forums. It is a way for me to procrastinate. Time flies by but then my girlfriend comes home from work and I think "damn, this was not a very productive afternoon."

hey there young man

this is a BIG problem for me too, I started doing a couple of things that helped:

1. I DO NOT look at my email/facebook the first thing in the morning. I try to do something productive first and only look at my inboxes at set times (just before lunch and then in the evening)

2. I use instapaper to bookmark the stuff I want to read and then read it later in bursts - I use this for longer articles

3. I use the pomodoro technique as much as possible, when the timer ( http://www.tomato-timer.com/# ) is not running I am probably wasting my time

hope some of this helps

Hi,
If you havent got the book "Mental game of poker'' by Jared Tendler, that would be the book I'd definitely suggest you to get.

There are different chapters for all the tilt types you described. Why they happen and how to solve them.

Good luck taking the most you can out of this bootcamp.

Originally posted by yegon

Originally posted by bartjuh
Productivity is not optimal either. I waste quite some time through email, news and lurking around the forums. It is a way for me to procrastinate. Time flies by but then my girlfriend comes home from work and I think "damn, this was not a very productive afternoon."

hey there young man

this is a BIG problem for me too, I started doing a couple of things that helped:

1. I DO NOT look at my email/facebook the first thing in the morning. I try to do something productive first and only look at my inboxes at set times (just before lunch and then in the evening)

2. I use instapaper to bookmark the stuff I want to read and then read it later in bursts - I use this for longer articles

3. I use the pomodoro technique as much as possible, when the timer ( http://www.tomato-timer.com/# ) is not running I am probably wasting my time

hope some of this helps

Hi, thanks for the tips fellow young man

I will look into that and try to start everyday by watching a video and making notes. Try to make that a routine. And maybe after that give myself 30 minutes for email etc.

Originally posted by jachis
Hi,
If you havent got the book "Mental game of poker'' by Jared Tendler, that would be the book I'd definitely suggest you to get.

There are different chapters for all the tilt types you described. Why they happen and how to solve them.

Good luck taking the most you can out of this bootcamp.

hi, thanks and GL to you too!

I have that book but, still need to work through it. I will try to work through the relevant chapters with help of the coaches.

Hey again,

You can take a look at this post to understand exactly why you have those problems with quitting projects and how to fix them :).

As you have figured out by yourself, having another person to do things together with you (gym) will make it less likely to chicken out as well, so when you're starting new habits, you can always try to find somebody to take them on together with you.

Regarding nutrition and losing weight, well, you either need to increase the amount of calories that you spend or decrease the amount of calories that you eat :). I think that trying to eat as healthy as possible is the best option if you want to lose weight but keep the energy which enables you to be productive.

To stop wasting time on the internets, you can take a look at these two browser addons: stayfocusd (chrome) or leechblock (firefox). And, as yegon has already pointed out, it is definitely not wise to check e-mails/fb first thing in the morning and trap yourself like that. Rather work on your hardest project first and try to avoid fb and similar time wasters until after you're done with work :).

You're definitely going in the right direction and it's awesome that you have already started taking action yourself (like taking notes).

As for the sleeping issues, is there perhaps a pattern out there for when you have sleeping problems? Perhaps you eat too little in the evening? Or spend too much time in front of a screen right before bed?

It's generally a really good idea to get away from the screens at least an hour before bed. You can do things like take a hot bath, eat a meal rich in slow-releasing protein, read books (physical/on e-paper), meditate, talk to your family/gf, have sex with your gf, get your gf to massage you, etc. in order to relax and have a more quality sleep :).

Let me know what you think!

-Primož

Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch

You can take a look at this post to understand exactly why you have those problems with quitting projects and how to fix them :).

As you have figured out by yourself, having another person to do things together with you (gym) will make it less likely to chicken out as well, so when you're starting new habits, you can always try to find somebody to take them on together with you.

Regarding nutrition and losing weight, well, you either need to increase the amount of calories that you spend or decrease the amount of calories that you eat :). I think that trying to eat as healthy as possible is the best option if you want to lose weight but keep the energy which enables you to be productive.

To stop wasting time on the internets, you can take a look at these two browser addons: stayfocusd (chrome) or leechblock (firefox). And, as yegon has already pointed out, it is definitely not wise to check e-mails/fb first thing in the morning and trap yourself like that. Rather work on your hardest project first and try to avoid fb and similar time wasters until after you're done with work :).

You're definitely going in the right direction and it's awesome that you have already started taking action yourself (like taking notes).

As for the sleeping issues, is there perhaps a pattern out there for when you have sleeping problems? Perhaps you eat too little in the evening? Or spend too much time in front of a screen right before bed?

It's generally a really good idea to get away from the screens at least an hour before bed. You can do things like take a hot bath, eat a meal rich in slow-releasing protein, read books (physical/on e-paper), meditate, talk to your family/gf, have sex with your gf, get your gf to massage you, etc. in order to relax and have a more quality sleep :).

Let me know what you think!

-Primož

Thanks for the tips!

This month I will try to create the habit of watching one video a day (more is allowed of course) and taking notes. I will do this after breakfast if I have no other obligations. If I do, than I will do it after those.
If I struggle, I will at least watch part of a video or watch a short one.
Today I watched your "learning" live coaching recording. It was pretty long so I took a brake midway and went outside with the dog for half an hour because the weather is beautiful today
I took notes of the video and definitively think it will improve my poker and mental game learning process.

I need to eat more healthy as my intentions are good but I tend to slip in this area. Key is not to have bad food in the house, because if it is I am not disciplined enough at the moment to stay away from it. If friends come over I need to have some because they won't be happy if I feed them carrots and orange juice. But other than that I need to limit what's in the house.
I enjoy chicken, nuts and some fish. I need to get more of those so I can eat some in the evening. I play poker most nights and get hungry around midnight a lot so having some high protein food available is good I think.
This will also help not feeling hungry when I go to sleep.

I will do social and news internet at lunch break for half an hour. And allow my self 15 minutes more in the evening / at night. I will set a timer for this. First let's see if this works. If it doesn't, than I need the help of a software program.

Before sleep I will try some mindfulness / meditation exercises to clear my head. Other options sound good too, especially the ones involving my gf, but she is on a different schedule on week days so she probably is not too thrilled about it if I wake her up every night for those ♦

Hey,

those sound like good plans! Keep us updated on how it goes :).

P.S. I really recommend you to watch my learning to learn video series soon, the videos there are way shorter but should provide you with some more useful information and improve your learning even more!

-Primož

Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch

those sound like good plans! Keep us updated on how it goes :).

Cool. I will do that.

P.S. I really recommend you to watch my learning to learn video series soon, the videos there are way shorter but should provide you with some more useful information and improve your learning even more!

Yes those videos seem useful and not to long. Will watch them this week.

I read through the tilt chapter of TMGOP, to create a strategy to get rid of my tilt problems. I already decided to deal with the most dangerous form of tilt (for me) first. Desperation tilt:

Originally posted by bartjuh

Desperation tilt

If things don't go well and I'm playing bad I can feel desperate. I think I'm never able to win again. Feeling numb, lethargic, sometimes I even think I'll go crazy, laughing about it but not in a healthy way.
In this state of mind, that is certainly not healthy, I can also suddenly move up in limits, spew stacks away and don't even care anymore because I think "ok lets go broke and be done with this game forever"
Luckily this only has happened a couple of times so far in my career, but nevertheless it should be dealt with asap so it won't happen ever again!

I found out that for me this is mainly a form of accumulated tilt consisting of running bad tilt and hate-losing tilt. So to resolve it completely I need to get rid of those. However this can take a while so I decided to see when this form of tilt happened in the past. I found that it can happen if I am in a big downswing, bigger than 50 buy-ins or when I am not that much down but run way under EV. For example I lose 10 buy-ins for the month but should be up 40 according EV.
So as a temporary strategy that I can use until the other tilt issues are resolved, I will implement the following:

If I'm in a downswing that passes 40 buy-ins I will take a week long brake from poker. The first two days I will do fun things, try not to think about poker at all and rest well. The next 5 days I can do some review, leak finding, and study. But not play a single hand at all. If I feel refreshed and confident again after a week, than I can resume play. If not than I need to take some more time off.

I will do the same if I am down between 0 and 40 buy-ins and run 40 buy-ins under EV for that period.

Also while in a downswing I will inject the following logic during session, so I will feel less down:

Downswings are part of poker and even the best players in the world encounter them. At least for me it is not millions of dollars.

If I did not have downswings, bad players would not have upswings. They would likely quit, so I would no longer be able to earn money over the long run.

While it sucks, a downswing is not the end of the world. And the good news is that it is only temporary as long as I keep playing well.

So far the desperation tilt.
I will try to tackle running-bad tilt next, starting tomorrow. I think I don't understand the full scope of variance yet. At least not to the level of unconscious competence.

I did book some progress the last days while playing. I try not to look at results in session and succeeded for 4 days now. But I run pretty good, so it is not a real test yet. And some mild tilt showed up after some bad beats and coolers. Enough to slip into B-game but not worse.
So overall I am happy so far, but still got a lot of work ahead.

I am looking forward to the seminar tomorrow!

I think I'll try to deal with the desperation tilt first. Although it is not the most frequent, it is clearly the most dangerous.

Ok so there a few things when it comes to which tilt we should address fist. So which form of tilt shows up first and most often. If the are the lower softer forms of tilt they might seem like they are lees important. But if they are the first step on path towards desperation tilt it doesn't make much sense to wait until there is completely chaos mentally before we take action. Makes sense right.

Try to put them in order of severity and in what order they show up.

Also look at how you can notice in the present moment that you are tilting. Try writing three separate list of signs of tilt:

• Internal signs: emotional, anger, sweaty palms, heart pounding etc, face getting hot for example
• External signs: swearing, punching the desk, leg starting to bounce
• Pokerstrategy signs: Plays that show up when you play your B/C-Game, calling 3bets light etc.

Then you try to put anything that comes up in the same kind of order as the different types of tilt. From 1-10 in order of what shows up first and level of severity.

Cheers!

Originally posted by ErikStenqvist

Ok so there a few things when it comes to which tilt we should address fist. So which form of tilt shows up first and most often. If the are the lower softer forms of tilt they might seem like they are lees important. But if they are the first step on path towards desperation tilt it doesn't make much sense to wait until there is completely chaos mentally before we take action. Makes sense right.

Yes, makes sense.

Try to put them in order of severity and in what order they show up.

Severity: 1. desperation tilt (most severe) 2. injustice tilt 3. running bad tilt 4. entitlement tilt 5. hate to lose tilt
Order of show up 1. hate to lose tilt (shows up first) 2. entitlement tilt 3. running bad tilt 4. injustice tilt 5. desperation tilt

So severity and order of show-up are reverse ♦

Also look at how you can notice in the present moment that you are tilting. Try writing three separate list of signs of tilt:

• Internal signs: emotional, anger, sweaty palms, heart pounding etc, face getting hot for example
  feeling annoyed, heart rate rising, feeling emotional/sad, feeling angry, heart pounding, rage
• External signs: swearing, punching the desk, leg starting to bounce
  kick on ground, swearing, kicking the desk, screaming, stand up and hit on wall / door
• Pokerstrategy signs: Plays that show up when you play your B/C-Game, calling 3bets light etc.
  B-game: small mistakes like not checking stats before making a play, autopiloting, tightening up a bit
  C-game: making wrong plays/ timing is off, actually being too aggressive in steal/re-steal spots, no plan for my hand, missing the action too much, not able to think clear and make the right plays
  D-game: spew stacks off like a monkey throwing bananas

Then you try to put anything that comes up in the same kind of order as the different types of tilt. From 1-10 in order of what shows up first and level of severity.

show up: 1. feeling annoyed 2. feeling emotional/sad 3. B-game shows up 4. heart rate rising 5. kick on ground 6. feeling angry 7. swearing 8. C-game shows up 9. kicking the desk 10. screaming 11. heart pounding 12. rage 13. D-game shows up 14. stand up and hit wall/door

Level of severity is basically the above list reversed.

Cheers!

Thanks. This gives a pretty good insight in my tilt problems.
So I should start working on the hate to lose tilt first I guess?

__________________
Erik Stenqvist --> Tilt, A-Game, Mindset & Lifecoaching.
Any questions about the mental side of poker? Just fire away!
Skype: erik.stenqvist
Email: Info@ErikStenqvist.com

Week one recap:

Worked on tilt issues; inventoried them and identified on what to work on first with the help of Erik

Worked to improve productivity with help of Schnitzelfisch; watched 11 videos for the week and took notes. In the process to make it a habit to watch at least one video everyday and make notes.

Attended the seminar Tuesday. It was very useful. I still have to re-watch it because a lot of material was covered in an hour. Plan to do that before the next seminar.

Commented some in the other soldiers treads. This could be improved upon in frequency though.

Goals for the second week:

Launch an attack on my hate-to-lose tilt.

Buy 3 binders; one for poker theory and concepts, one for leak finding and one for the mental game. This way I can work out and categorize the writings in my notebook and work on my game in a structured manner.

Attend the next seminar and try to be a bit more active.

Commend in other soldiers threads. Maybe a bit more than last week.

Here is some inspirational music to keep going strong in the next week of the bootcamp: The White Stripes - 'Seven Nation Army'

GL everybody!

Hey there,

how did you like the videos? Do you have any questions regarding them?

-Primož