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Overcards and GS IP MW

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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

Firstly, vs a UTG OR from an unknown player, should I be folding this PF?

Secondly, OTF, after both villains check to me I think it worth making a semi-bluff. I'm very unlikely to be ahead as it stands, so if I could fold the villains that would be great, but I also have a chance to improve if I get called (and obviously I fold to a raise). But given that I'm IP and my overs often won't be good, would I be better taking a free card?

OTT, I think villain will rarely fold to a further bet on that blank turn, so I check behind.

OTR, I now have TP, but I'm losing to AK. It's an obvious bluff card for villain, so I call him. In retrospect, this seems like an error, as I'm relying on villain either having AQ in his PF range or playing TT this way. But maybe one or other of those is happening often enough for this to work?

Poker Stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

BTN: $10.00 - VPIP: 11, PFR: 8, 3B: 6, AF: 2.5, Hands: 159
SB: $10.03 - VPIP: 11, PFR: 9, 3B: 3, AF: 1.4, Hands: 201
BB: $5.68 - VPIP: 54, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 5.0, Hands: 13
UTG: $10.00 - VPIP: 7, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 1.0, Hands: 14
UTG+1: $11.04 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 14, 3B: 5, AF: 0.8, Hands: 110
UTG+2: $6.80 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 14, 3B: 10, AF: 1.5, Hands: 108
MP1: $10.21 - VPIP: 13, PFR: 8, 3B: 1, AF: 1.6, Hands: 171
MP2: $10.55 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 15, 3B: 3, AF: 2.5, Hands: 326
Hero (CO): $11.02 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 14, 3B: 7, AF: 2.9, Hands: 13465

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with Q :spade: K :club:
UTG raises to $0.30, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.30, 2 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) 9 :diamond: J :club: 4 :spade: (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.45, BB folds, UTG calls $0.45

Turn: ($1.85) 2 :heart: (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.85) K :heart: (2 players)


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22 replies
Dadramel
Joined: 10.08.2014

You should've raised him or fold pre, no point in calling. You wanted to bluff them out in 3way betting below 50% of the pot, without continuing, try to justify your movements


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Our hand is right for 3 bet /bluff or fold ( if you do not feel comfortable).
on the flop vs 2, our cbet is not ok. No folds, board connects with their ranges.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

I have a lot of 3-bet bluffs here already. If I were to add this hand, I believe I would be unable to balance my range. I'm quite happy to fold this.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

Not sure how this board is connecting with the villains' ranges though. BB is a fish so he could have anything, and a UTG opening range won't hit this board. If UTG had an OP, I expect him to have bet already, and if he has overcards he ought to be willing to fold to a bet in a 3w pot.


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Dadramel
Joined: 10.08.2014

Originally posted by Lathdari
Not sure how this board is connecting with the villains' ranges though. BB is a fish so he could have anything, and a UTG opening range won't hit this board. If UTG had an OP, I expect him to have bet already, and if he has overcards he ought to be willing to fold to a bet in a 3w pot.

You properly mentioned the fish could have had anything, "fishes" are not vulnerable to bluffs, especially to those in questionable sizes.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by Lathdari
Not sure how this board is connecting with the villains' ranges though. BB is a fish so he could have anything, and a UTG opening range won't hit this board. If UTG had an OP, I expect him to have bet already, and if he has overcards he ought to be willing to fold to a bet in a 3w pot.

As you say BB is a fish, so he can have any pair+ hand, a draw, a combo draw, all those hands he will "love" and not fold vs a flop cbet.


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zoty79
Joined: 31.03.2010

Fold preflop.

As played, if you bet the flop, than bet a little bit biger. And i would bet the turn again, and check or fold the river. He could call with Pockets on the Flop,
which he folds to a second bet.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

There is nothing wrong with the preflop play, it is a matter of personal style. If you are very good post-flop, then you can pretty much call with any two playable hands, barring offsuit non-connectors without risking very much. The blinds should not be that squeeze-happy vs UTG open. Very deep stacks + 2 fish in pot (1 + 1 in BB certain to enter) -> at least call 100%. Not kidding.

The above applies to the button position, and the button position only, at least 100bb in the stacks, and only if you feel really confident playing postflop.

Note that 2♣:2♦: or 8♦:6♦: and even 7♥:6♦: in a very real sense are much better than K♠:Q♣: if stacks are deep and fish are present. K♠:Q♣: is looking to steal a small pot (fear domination if you get called even once by UTG), and the other hands are looking to win a big one if we hit nicely.


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MJPerry
Joined: 03.10.2011

It's definitely on the nitty side to fold this pre, but I wouldn't think it was atrocious. Whether you flat (totally acceptable imo) or 3bet (often better) is personal preference.

As played, I'm betting this river. He's going to check back a huge amount of worse hands such as AJ or QQ that he's going to call a reasonable bet with.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Actually, UTG bet river according to OP. Would you call MJ?


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MJPerry
Joined: 03.10.2011

Oh I misread the hand, then.

Probably going to call a river bet because I'm a fish.


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CPallo
Joined: 12.04.2012

Originally posted by Lathdari
I have a lot of 3-bet bluffs here already. If I were to add this hand, I believe I would be unable to balance my range. I'm quite happy to fold this.

If you have many bluffs, then this should just get to your fold range. You are going to win small pots with this hand and lose huge one in the long-run. You are so often dominated here.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

I don't agree. Screw ranges. You have KQ on the button with fish in the BB (unfortunately not with a full stack). If you have the common sense to not lose your stack with TPDK, call. There is no reasonably viable way they can exploit it. They'll just notice (after a year) you are loose on the button. So what? It is an error not to be. If the unlikely event that that turns out to become a problem, then you'll cross that river.


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CPallo
Joined: 12.04.2012

Originally posted by YohanN7
I don't agree. Screw ranges. You have KQ on the button with fish in the BB (unfortunately not with a full stack). If you have the common sense to not lose your stack with TPDK, call. There is no reasonably viable way they can exploit it. They'll just notice (after a year) you are loose on the button. So what? It is an error not to be. If the unlikely event that that turns out to become a problem, then you'll cross that river.

But what sort of pots are you going to win with this hand? Most of the time you are facing fire everywhere, and you have to give up even your top-pairs on FR tables. Ofc that fish there adds some value for the call, though, but it's not even certain that he would join the pot.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

We can take down small pots of course. The UTG should be reluctant to fire a c-bet if he misses 3-ways. Avoid the big ones. Position (and fish) allows for this I believe.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by YohanN7
There is nothing wrong with the preflop play, it is a matter of personal style. If you are very good post-flop, then you can pretty much call with any two playable hands, barring offsuit non-connectors without risking very much. The blinds should not be that squeeze-happy vs UTG open. Very deep stacks + 2 fish in pot (1 + 1 in BB certain to enter) -> at least call 100%. Not kidding.

The above applies to the button position, and the button position only, at least 100bb in the stacks, and only if you feel really confident playing postflop.

Note that 2♣:2♦: or 8♦:6♦: and even 7♥:6♦: in a very real sense are much better than K♠:Q♣: if stacks are deep and fish are present. K♠:Q♣: is looking to steal a small pot (fear domination if you get called even once by UTG), and the other hands are looking to win a big one if we hit nicely.

We cannot call profitably with this hand. It is dominated by UTG opening range and if we face a squeeze we should fold.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by YohanN7
We can take down small pots of course.
.

That is another reason we should not just call pre.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

It will be hard for us to call on river as AK, KJ beat us and we split with KQ.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Again it deserves mention that nobody will beat nitrols (who by the way underestimates the value of position and fish in the pot, and the fact that we have good control over the range of the UTG, the converse not being true since we are loose) post-count.


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