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Discussion Thread: SNG Preflop Play

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Fofinho344
Joined: 20.05.2015

The first article talks about Open raising in a situation about 8-20 BBs. But I don't understand the second article which talks about entering in an opened pots (limped pots and raised pots). Is it about 8-20 BBs phase too? Which phase (BBs) is it about?


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VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Hi, Fofinho344,
Welcome to the PokerStrategy.com English forums!

The "Entering an Opened Pot" article is also primarily about the early stage of SnGs
Once you are below 8BB, any raise is going to require you to commit your stack.

The clue is about half way down the page:

In general, you should not 3-bet small if such a bet represents more than 25% of the effective stack. This is because if the effective stack is so small, after 3-betting you are getting the right odds

Since the smallest recommended raise is 2 BB anything larger is > 25% of an 8BB stack.

I hope that helped.

Some SnG experts may have more info on this...

Best of luck,
VS


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rakegrinder
Joined: 16.08.2015

Hello Experts,

I have read the preflop strategy (1) open raising charts and i studied the SB chart especially. I noticed that it has a 35% opening range for the blue area that is open with any stack size. With cash games I am used to open on the SB for let's say 25% range similiar to the cut off. Why is it okay here to open with such a wide range (35%) on the SB playing SNG?

Taking into consideration we are facing play out of position against the BB. Also taking into consideration that the effective stack size is between 15 and 25 and not playing the bubble so an open push is not an option. Please explain why it is profitable to open up 35% on the SB. Thanks a lot in advance!


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VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Well spotted, rakegrinder, and welcome to the forums!

It almost looks like the Button and SB charts are reversed.
As presented, BU's chart is a touch tighter than SBs

I don't have an answer myself, but I'll bump this to the other mods to see if we can get a coach to explain why the charts are thus.

Best of luck,
VS


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

I had another thought -- how does this SB open-raising chart compare with my gameplan chart for SB?
The gameplan series of articles is a few years old now, but using that and w34z3l's "range construction" videos I created for myself a "standard" set of ranges for open-raising and responding to open-raises.

The result is essentially a baseline for 100 BB effective stack cash games.
It seems to me that they should be looser that for SnGs, which play with smaller effective stacks.
Note that I modify, adjust and totally disregard these as I see fit :coolface:

Small blind chart:

Spoiler


The colours:
:diamond:  "background" blue -- open raise
:diamond:  "bright" blue -- 3Bet/fold
:diamond:  yellow -- call
:diamond:  red -- 3Bet/shove (or 4Bet/shove)
:diamond:  orange -- call or 3Bet choice

Button chart:

Spoiler

Note that the button chart is WAY wider than the SnG button chart, but the SB chart is tighter than the SnG chart.

The exercise of going through a standard open-raising range and defining your own responses is well worth the effort. If nothing else it gives you a gut feel of what others are doing.

I fail often in that I don't 3Bet/fold enough, especially from the BU, but that's another story ...

It is well worth making the effort to get gold just to watch w34z3l's range construction series.
I'm sure that the principles apply to SnGs also.

All the best,
VS


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nikihunden
Joined: 31.05.2015

Hi guys

In Strategy : Sit & Go : Playing Preflop (1) : Open Raising it says:

"If some players have smaller stacks, your effective stack is the smaller of the two: your own stack size and the average stack of players left to act."

Now I have allways learned that the definition of effective stack is:

The effective stacksize is the size of the smallest stack when two players are in a pot.

That's it. No equations, no tricky theory.

If we all define effective stacksizes as we want, we can just as well stop talking about effective stacksizes.

Do let me know what you mean!

Ps: I know that I have posted this in another thread. But
none of the guru's reacted there. So I'll give it a try here.


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VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Hi, nikihunden,
When the first player open-raises, there is no way to know what the effective stack will be until another player calls.

So to estimate it, it seems reasonable to use the average of the players left behind.

Once two players actually see a flop, then yes, the effective stack size is the smaller of the two stacks.

When more than two players are in a pot, then the effective stack for the big stack is the next-smaller stack size.
For everyone else, it is their own stack.

The best way to put it is "The effective stack is the most I can lose this hand".

Originally posted by nikihunden
Ps: I know that I have posted this in another thread. But
none of the guru's reacted there. So I'll give it a try here.

Which other thread -- I must have missed it.

All the best,
VS


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nikihunden
Joined: 31.05.2015

Thanks for your reply VorpalF2F :f_thumbsup:

To start backwards:

The best way to put it is "The effective stack is the most I can lose this hand".

I do agree with that. That is excactly what HoldemResources Calculator
does. It takes the bigger stack of the players that have not acted yet and
compares this to Hero. This way you know what you can loose. And if we
must use effective stacksize in multiways that is my favourite.

As to your first statement:

So to estimate it, it seems reasonable to use the average of the players left behind.

To be frank: I have never heard that version before until I read the
lesson. And we have just lost the argument above that we want to
know how much we can loose.

Hope I have made myself clear. Do let me know what you think.
Have a nice day :gl:


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Hi, nikihunden,
I had not thought of this before, and to be honest, I do NOT average anything while at the table.

If I have a 200+ BB stack, on the button, and the blinds are quite different, I'll focus on the larger stack's stats.
If they're nearly the same, I examine them both more closely.

Postflop, I don't usually calculate Stack-to-Pot ratio. I just judge it as "Small, medium, large"

Good points -- thanks!
VS


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scopinad
Joined: 13.06.2015

How does all this preflop frenzy (open pushing, 3-betting small, flat calling, pushing with low to mid pairs and low suited aces, raising a limper) go along with the ICM model stating that in the first rounds, you should sit tight and do nothing unless you have monster hole cards??


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scopinad
Joined: 13.06.2015

I guess the re-pushing range is just a last resort range after you 3-bet small and committed more than 20% of your stack in or whatever the right percentage is, so after a shove you can either fold or re-push and with those hands (suited aces and pairs), you just go for a re-push which is +EV, then if you lose the coin flip, you just move on to the next sng knowing your call was mathematically correct.
Am I right?


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