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AJo 4-way pot

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marsa08
Joined: 30.01.2014

$0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $21.47 (107.4 bb)
BB: $17.15 (85.8 bb)
UTG: $31.36 (156.8 bb)
MP: $4.24 (21.2 bb)
Hero (CO): $20.85 (104.3 bb)
BTN: $19.97 (99.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J A
UTG raises to $0.40, MP folds, Hero calls $0.40, BTN raises to $0.60, SB folds, BB calls $0.40, UTG calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($2.50) Q J 3 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $1.75, BTN calls $1.75, 2 folds

Turn: ($6) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($6) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.40, Hero calls $3.40

UTG 60/34/3bet11,8/ 36 hands.
BTN 46/14/3bet 7,1/ 37 hands
BB 53/24/45 hands

Table full of fishes :f_drink:

Pre: I call because it is a min raise + UTG has been active. Then BTN min raises and I basically have to call with these odds + I close the action when I call.

Flop: If UTG or BB had a set/2pair I think that they would donk that hand often on this board. They might donk Qx too. So they often have a weak range. BTN;s range is a mystery.

Some players might check/call here or check/fold. I prefer to lead out. It makes it easier for me to play later streets + If some one raises it is easy to fold instead of check/call guess where we stand. Also there is worse hands that can call(draws mainly, sometimes weaker Jx as they all are bad players)

Turn: Turn is a blank. Only BTN calls my bet like I assumed that UTG and BB has weak hands. I check for pot control + I don't want to value bet myself vs Qx hands. BTN checks behind.

River: River is another blank card. It only helped 7x flushdraws. I check again for the same reasons as I did on the turn. I also try to induce draws to bet. If villain had Qx+ hand I think that he would have bet it on the turn.

Now villain bets into me. His range is mainly 7x diamond hands, weaker Jx hands and busted draws(Like I said, Qx+ would bet on the turn and not check on this board). I decide to call as I'm almost always ahead of his range.

That was long post, I hope that I described my line of thought well enough. Do you think that leading out otf is good idea? Also is my river call correct?


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29 replies
nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

I think we should 3b or fold preflop.
As played, we can bet turn.


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Kev43
Joined: 30.07.2010

I would 3b pre because I don't expect UTG to be folding a lot. If UTG folds a lot to 3bets then it gets annoying because his calling range is too strong against your AJ. With the information we have I don't think that's the case, and our hands does well against his calling range.
Calling is annoying because it's a minraise so BTN will be tempted to call as well.
Fold sounds a bit weak: UTG is 60/34 so far, we are well ahead of his range.

As played your position is not ideal with the second pair against 3 opponents.

I'm okay with your play flop.
We have little information but I agree with nitrol, we can bet turn as well. Unless he has like 4/4 fold to cbet which might indicate that he's weak postflop you still have a value bet.


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marsa08
Joined: 30.01.2014

Mabye I should 3bet for value here. I was just thinking that UTG is agressive and he will 4 bet me alot, which is not true(mental leak of mine) Next time I will 3b

If we bet turn what is your plan on the river as we are OOP and now the pot is bigger? Lets assume that this same blank card comes otr.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Xf river if you bet turn.


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Hesticus
Joined: 24.06.2008

Sorry guys, I would flat this one as well but I would x OTF with a medium value hand and go for the last 2 streets to get value.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

I would 3bet this pre. Not as a value but as a bluff vs UTG.
We are multiway -> if we are going to x/c, it is better to just bet ourselves.
As played you can bet turn and x/f river.


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marsa08
Joined: 30.01.2014

Results:

Spoiler

$12.80 pot ($0.85 rake)
Final Board: Q J 3 7 7
Hero mucked J A and won $11.95 ($6.20 net)
BTN showed T K and lost (-$5.75 net)

Mabye we get some value from draws by betting on the turn ourselves. I just didn't want to build the pot OOP + he might have Qx too.

Originally posted by Hesticus
Sorry guys, I would flat this one as well but I would x OTF with a medium value hand and go for the last 2 streets to get value.

I prefer to lead out so we can see where we stand. If we check and BTN bets we don't know if he has a set or 2 pair or Qx or draw.. he can have anything and we are guessing.


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Hesticus
Joined: 24.06.2008

I see what you mean. I also tried that with AJ last week but without success. The problem with the reason of knowing where you stand is that we forgo the fundament of why we are betting, which is solely for value or as a bluff. We may find a way to lead to see where we stand as a consequence for value or a bluff. However, IMO medium value hands are not that suitable for value nor as a bluff OTF.

If villain bets OTF and OTT, we should fold OTT. Villain is repping a too strong of a hand. Just wait for a better opportunity then.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

What hands will you 3bet as a bluff vs UTG then?


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Hesticus
Joined: 24.06.2008

suited connectors.. lower equity cards with high postflop expectations I think. However, I don't bluff so much on MP and CO. Not needed yet at NL2


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

UTG's 3bet call range is tight and he has most likely pocket pairs and high AX hands. AJo would be a bluff 3bet and if we hit that ace and villain calls or gets aggressive it is easy to give up. I would 3bet suited connectors as a bluff more when OOP. But 3bet bluffing those is not bad. You might be right that there is not need to bluff 3bet so much at NL2.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

The bluff 3b has a main target to make villain fold. In a case he calls it is good to have blockers. Vs EP raisers I prefer AJo then sc .


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Kev43
Joined: 30.07.2010

Originally posted by la55i
UTG's 3bet call range is tight

What makes you think that ?


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Players have the tightest opening range from UTG. It is logical to assume that his calling range to 3b will be tighter. PLushe will be OOP which tightens morehis range.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Exactly what nitrol said. UTG open range is the tightest one. That is why ppl 3bet tight vs UTG and that is why UTG calls 3bets with tight range.


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Kev43
Joined: 30.07.2010

I play NL10 on a different room so I may have a different kind of opponents but when I see a 60/34 after 36 hands I don't assume they know what position is. I think this player likes to put money in the pot and win pots by making his opponents fold.
So I assume he likes to call here.

I know the sample is small but I would agree with you if his VPIP and PFR were a bit closer.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Oh, yes. You are right about that villain is probably a fish. But when I said that UTG's 3bet call range is tight you took it out of context. We were talking with Hesticus about what hands to bluff as a 3bet and I explained why I prefer bluff 3betting AJo instead of suited connectors. So it was not related to this particular hand. More of a general statement. We went kind of off-topic :f_rolleyes:


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by Kev43
I play NL10 on a different room so I may have a different kind of opponents but when I see a 60/34 after 36 hands I don't assume they know what position is. I think this player likes to put money in the pot and win pots by making his opponents fold.
So I assume he likes to call here.

I know the sample is small but I would agree with you if his VPIP and PFR were a bit closer.

60/34 in 36 hands is nothing. I often have such stats. If he is 60/34 after 100 or 200 or 500 hands, then you will have a point.
Now, all your assumptions are rootless.


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Kev43
Joined: 30.07.2010

@la55i: Ah, yes. Then I agree with you that against a "normal" opponent you can't value 3bet with AJ.

Originally posted by nitrol
60/34 in 36 hands is nothing. I often have such stats. If he is 60/34 after 100 or 200 or 500 hands, then you will have a point.
Now, all your assumptions are rootless.

I know but so are yours ^^
You may have such stats on 36 hands sometimes but have you ever minraised UTG ?

But on principle I agree with you, we need a bigger sample to have an idea of the player he is. Right now we only have hints.


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