GAZDE

Hey!

I think that yo turn raise is not the best option because in that case, unless he is a calling station, he will only call with better hands than yours, AA, AK, Flush. I mean, raising UTG and calling you raise, and then betting the river, his range is very polarized so I think that without the flush draw being completed you can confidently call the bet but since you have no blocker he's very likely to have the flush, evaluating from his behavior post turn.

Anyway, I am a noob and beginner player so I am probably wrong.

Cheers! And good luck

Hi AlexakaAce,
I agree with DedoMassivo,

The turn raise is a bluff, since you rep a flush, but don't have it.

By just calling the turn, you get a chance to try for the full house ( 4 outs).

Also keep in mind that AA, AK and KK are solidly in UTGs opening range.

What do you think of raising the flop?

Cheers,
VS

Agree with DedoMassivo aswell, id flat the turn and call most rivers. He can call AQ with Q clubs on turn to a raise ,it might be optimistic to think he calls JJ QQ with J or Q clubs although not out the question i guess. I dont think raising turn is for value and i'm not sure you need to raise to protect vs some of the above mentioned hands and hands like KQ KJ that contain a club as they will check call turn a'lot anyway rather than barrel.

It's OK to raise there due to villain's underbet.

GAZDE

GAZDE

Originally posted by AlexakaAce
I would never think of raising the flop, I feel like the pot will be uncontrollable if he has something good.. I would also give him free money in the length by better aces (If I was 100% sure the 10 would spike off on the turn, then it'd probably be easier), but I just think his aces beats me pretty much all the time in that spot, or am I wrong?

Hi AlexakaAce,
That argument also applies to the turn I think -- especially since OTT there are made flushes and straights on board.
At least raising the flop denies him the cheap draw. Yes, if you're already beaten, you're beaten -- that happens.

Cheers,
VS

GAZDE

We cannot raise neither flop nor turn. On flop vs UTG why do we raise? On turn when straight and flush got there we are weak.

GAZDE

Originally posted by AlexakaAce

Originally posted by nitrol
We cannot raise neither flop nor turn. On flop vs UTG why do we raise? On turn when straight and flush got there we are weak.

Yeah, that is the mistake. A part of what triggered me was his small betsizing.

Your range would likely look very weak to villain , depending on what you defend here from the BB. And if he tripple barrels 3 small streets he can get paid down with a very wide range and make say 30 . If he chooses to bet turn bigger like 20 then it generates way to many folds. And your range is rarely then strong enough to call a river bet if you call turn.

So he makes 20 on occasional turn bets. So long term by a bigger turn bet Vs your perceived range he makes less long term by sizing his bets up in this spot. If you have a flush youll raise at some point and he can then either call down or get the money in and still make value from those hands.

Just call the turn bet. There's no value in a raise. What do you expect him to call with?

GAZDE

Originally posted by AlexakaAce

Originally posted by YohanN7
Just call the turn bet. There's no value in a raise. What do you expect him to call with?

Aces that didn't pair their kicker :/

There are no such in his range unless you are up against a horrible player. If there are some, not even the horrible player will call the raise with them.

I can't understand why the majority of you guys consider raising a bad play?
Look at the turn betsize and at the board. All combos of AcQx / AxQc / AcJx / AxJc will underbet and call a raise OTT.

I don't like raising here. And I don't think we can raise just because villain bets small. It doesn't necessarily tell us much. He could be slowplaying nuts or then he doesn't want to bet big with str8 or sets because flush hits. I don't think he will call our raise with that many weaker hands so we just end up isolating ourselves against a strong range.

Originally posted by ovatsuG21
I can't understand why the majority of you guys consider raising a bad play?
Look at the turn betsize and at the board. All combos of AcQx / AxQc / AcJx / AxJc will underbet and call a raise OTT.

We read hands very differently. You are up against a UTG open range. UTG knows that you know that you are up against a UTG open range. That is to say, ranges are strong. When ranges are strong, you need a very strong hand to raise for value. Remember you need to be a favorite against his calling range (which, by the way, contains no hand with only a pair unless A♣: is part of it). His small bets aren't evidence enough of both the conclusions that he is weak and will call a raise.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by ovatsuG21
I can't understand why the majority of you guys consider raising a bad play?
Look at the turn betsize and at the board. All combos of AcQx / AxQc / AcJx / AxJc will underbet and call a raise OTT.

We read hands very differently. You are up against a UTG open range. UTG knows that you know that you are up against a UTG open range. That is to say, ranges are strong. When ranges are strong, you need a very strong hand to raise for value. Remember you need to be a favorite against his calling range (which, by the way, contains no hand with only a pair unless A♣: is part of it). His small bets aren't evidence enough of both the conclusions that he is weak and will call a raise.

So UTG has no AJ or AQ in his range? His range is kinda polarized, that low bet is either a solid made hand like a made flush or a mid strength hand like the hand i said before.
Sets would never underbet in that board, i think even AK wouldn't underbet it and mid strenght with clubs/gutshot will call a raise OTT.
I'm not saying that calling is way wrong but i clearly see raising a +EV play, even thought it has some more variance in it.

The main problem in hero's play was the river call on a brick vs a strong donk.

Originally posted by ovatsuG21

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by ovatsuG21
I can't understand why the majority of you guys consider raising a bad play?
Look at the turn betsize and at the board. All combos of AcQx / AxQc / AcJx / AxJc will underbet and call a raise OTT.

We read hands very differently. You are up against a UTG open range. UTG knows that you know that you are up against a UTG open range. That is to say, ranges are strong. When ranges are strong, you need a very strong hand to raise for value. Remember you need to be a favorite against his calling range (which, by the way, contains no hand with only a pair unless A♣: is part of it). His small bets aren't evidence enough of both the conclusions that he is weak and will call a raise.

(1) So UTG has no AJ or AQ in his range? (2) His range is kinda polarized, that low bet is either a solid made hand like a made flush or a mid strength hand like the hand i said before.
(3) Sets would never underbet in that board, i think even AK wouldn't underbet it and mid strenght with clubs/gutshot will call a raise OTT.
(4) I'm not saying that calling is way wrong but i clearly see raising a +EV play, even thought it has some more variance in it.

(5) The main problem in hero's play was the river call on a brick vs a strong donk.

(I numbered a couple of statements in the quote. Hope you don't mind.)

(1): AJ is not part of a typical UTG open range. AQ is. AQ can be played bet flop, and bet small turn (stop bet). It can also be checked behind due to the scary board. There is, however, no value in betting AQ for villain. Its value lies in catching river bluffs (on part of you, which is the rationale for a check) and the equity in the present pot (which is the rationale for betting small if he is afraid of a big river bluff on part of you that he would fold to - i.e. a stopping bet).

Thus he is very rarely going to call a raise with a hand you can beat.

(2): Polarized usually means weak or strong, not in the middle.

(3): I agree that sets and top two should bet bigger.

(4): No matter how you read his range (slightly different from me, I say no AJ and only a few AQ), he isn't often going to call a raise with AQ/AJ. The raise has (and here we differ profoundly in opinion) decidedly negative EV.

(5): It isn't a donk. The HH is screwed up. Hero is in BB and villain is UTG. I'd say if you actually are convinced that villain is weak, and willing to call raises on the turn with trash, then stay with your conviction and call that river bet. Such a villain is capable of bluffing on a river blank. I personally would only check-call turn and check-call a reasonable river bet, but not a big one.