SH Zoom AKo, Cold 4betting

When i have zero money invested in the pot id rather take the neutral ev line and fold pre if i'm unsure. I think 4bet folding AK is a worse option as your going to have the equity to call shove in a 4bet pot. If i'm 4betting it's to 4bet call.

Not 100% sure though as 4bet pots seem to have changed a'lot since i started playing again with people flatting TT-QQ AK in 4bet pots . Personally i think its terrible 100bb deep but ill need to look into it more.

The idea of 4bet folding hands like JJ QQ or AK just doesn't appeal to me ,Id prefer calling pre here over turning AK into a 4bet bluff.

Originally posted by BingoWings
When i have zero money invested in the pot id rather take the neutral ev line and fold pre if i'm unsure. I think 4bet folding AK is a worse option as your going to have the equity to call shove in a 4bet pot. If i'm 4betting it's to 4bet call.

Not 100% sure though as 4bet pots seem to have changed a'lot since i started playing again with people flatting TT-QQ AK in 4bet pots . Personally i think its terrible 100bb deep but ill need to look into it more.

The idea of 4bet folding hands like JJ QQ or AK just doesn't appeal to me ,Id prefer calling pre here over turning AK into a 4bet bluff.

When we cold call, postflop we will usually be in a sandwich with A-high in a big pot, which won't be profitable, actually it won't be as profitable as 4betting. The idea of 4bet/folding is from PokerSnowie. Snowie thinks that EV of 4betting is 2 times better than cold calling. If any of the players shove, Snowie is folding. The reason is definitelly a fold equity we have preflop when we 4bet. Also, if someone calls we still have a decent hand which can hit well postflop + we have initiative. If we face a shove, I think we can expect to be vs KK+ 95% of the time, so we have like 20% of equity.

Why would it be KK+ 95% of the time , do people not shove at'least QQ+ AK in that spot if you 4bet ? even with it being a cold 4bet.

Ill have to do some work on 4bet pots , old school thinking is flatting 4bets 100bb deep is pretty terrible because you just dont have the implied odds and hands like AK don't relaize full equity very often.

Ive seen players with quite decent reggish stats flatting 4bets with as wide as 99 and it boggles my mind that it can be a +ev call , set mining wasnt thought to be profitable in 3bet pots because you dont have the implied odds . People seem to disregard implied odds from what ive seen and just go off preflop odds getting 2/1. It seems wrong to me.

Might take some time to adjust my thoughts if the game theory is saying this is the correct play.

If AK isn't in your flatting range though in these spots then it's the obvious candidate to use as a cold 4bet bluff .

If people are cold 4bet folding AK and only calling KK+ what is the ev of shoving QQ+ AK vs a cold 4bet ? surely it has to be very +ev.

Originally posted by BingoWings
If people are cold 4bet folding AK and only calling KK+ what is the ev of shoving QQ+ AK vs a cold 4bet ? surely it has to be very +ev.

I don't think that people in general are cold 4bet/folding AK. If they cold 4bet, they usually call a shove. Imo, the problem with 4bet/calling AK is that people won't 3bet/shove nothing worse than KK+ and some combos of QQ and AK. Many players will call AK and QQ in that situation because cold 4betting looks very strong. For example, if in the hand above SB 3bet/shoves and we assign him a range of KK+ and half combos of QQ, AKo and AKs, we have 34% of equity and we need ~38% to call. It's all close and I don't think it's terrible to 4bet/call AK, but I believe that in general it won't be profitable. I mean, Snowie believes and I tend to agree.

Are there any thoughts about postflop?

Trying to give my ranges a much needed overhaul and using snowie for the first time , could someone please confirm snowie advises folding 22-66 on the BTN Vs an UTG raise ? i thought all pp's were a call on thr btn and 22-66 were a fold mp vs utg.

Im using ranges from many years ago right now.

Thanks.

Preflop is excellent to put pressure with AK. If we do not put pressure with this hand what hands we will cold 4b there? AA/KK?
And we cannot fold if someone pushes.

As for postflop, you cannot fold on turn with TP+combo draw.

Originally posted by BingoWings
Trying to give my ranges a much needed overhaul and using snowie for the first time , could someone please confirm snowie advises folding 22-66 on the BTN Vs an UTG raise ? i thought all pp's were a call on thr btn and 22-66 were a fold mp vs utg.

Im using ranges from many years ago right now.

Thanks.

Snowie folds 22-66, but also 77-88. Here is his preflop advice BTN vs UTG 3x:

Thanks very much i wasn't sure i was reading it correctly. Snowie helped with some 3bet ranges from certain positions and ive used it to tweak the ranges i was using a little.

The 4bet calling ranges puzzle me , how on earth do we get the implied odds to set mine 4bet pots . Snowie is calling hands like 66-77 in some 4bet pots and hands like ATs+ . I get the fact that we are offered direct odds pre but have implied odds gone out the window ?Snowies calling ranges in 4bet pots and jamming ranges seem really weird to me.

Originally posted by BingoWings
Thanks very much i wasn't sure i was reading it correctly. Snowie helped with some 3bet ranges from certain positions and ive used it to tweak the ranges i was using a little.

The 4bet calling ranges puzzle me , how on earth do we get the implied odds to set mine 4bet pots . Snowie is calling hands like 66-77 in some 4bet pots and hands like ATs+ . I get the fact that we are offered direct odds pre but have implied odds gone out the window ?Snowies calling ranges in 4bet pots and jamming ranges seem really weird to me.

Yes, some ranges are really weird (but also some postflop sugestions imo), but I think they should be just a rough guide to construct ranges that work in reality.

Originally posted by Alleen86

Originally posted by BingoWings
Thanks very much i wasn't sure i was reading it correctly. Snowie helped with some 3bet ranges from certain positions and ive used it to tweak the ranges i was using a little.

The 4bet calling ranges puzzle me , how on earth do we get the implied odds to set mine 4bet pots . Snowie is calling hands like 66-77 in some 4bet pots and hands like ATs+ . I get the fact that we are offered direct odds pre but have implied odds gone out the window ?Snowies calling ranges in 4bet pots and jamming ranges seem really weird to me.

Yes, some ranges are really weird (but also some postflop sugestions imo), but I think they should be just a rough guide to construct ranges that work in reality.

Im very much old school thinking when it comes to 4bets and 5bets and play shove or fold . I dont have a 4bet calling range apart from a few traps with AA sometimes kK. I hate calling hands like AK though to a 4bet it makes no sense to me as you miss flops often and don't realize the full equity of the hand preflop or postflop.

People seem to be calling 4bets really really wide though these days calling hands like A9s ATs pp's even decent regs are doing it. Certainly not something im ready to incorporate into my game.

I can understand it with the dynamics and agression at higher lvls but it seems like a train wreck waiting to happen in the micros where 4bets are just so unbalanced and weighted to value.

cheers for the help though.

Ugly Spot but against a potsize bet i prefer folding. He is never bluffing in this Spot and to Call Turn and fold River without Flush/Straight just sucks. With 9 Outs to the Flush and 9$ behind its -EV. With 12 Outs its close to Breakeven.

Originally posted by Alleen86

Originally posted by BingoWings
Trying to give my ranges a much needed overhaul and using snowie for the first time , could someone please confirm snowie advises folding 22-66 on the BTN Vs an UTG raise ? i thought all pp's were a call on thr btn and 22-66 were a fold mp vs utg.

Im using ranges from many years ago right now.

Thanks.

Snowie folds 22-66, but also 77-88. Here is his preflop advice BTN vs UTG 3x:

Wow!

Folding JTs on BU versus a 3x UTG open is not, ...,a tight fold, ... . It is an idiot fold.

Assuming 100 bb stacks, I bet a million that a decent pro would rather die than publicly advocate a fold here.

But are the numbers correct? A pot bet is 3.5 bb (call 1 big blind to make pot 2.5 bb + 2.5 bb raise).

EDIT: I am astonished. It is tight as hell, but it does raise with a shitload of dominated aces. (Being sooooted doesn't do much for you HU.) About the only thing I agree with (except that AA is a raising hand, 72o is a folding hand and such things) is raising with a selection of small suited connectors. I couldn't ever bring myself to fold a pair or a suited gapper or even a double gapper against weak competition.

Even though the flop sucks big time, I would cbet-get it in. You have enough equity vs his preflop calling range.

Originally posted by coldchurch
Even though the flop sucks big time, I would cbet-get it in. You have enough equity vs his preflop calling range.

This (about the equity) is obviously totally wrong. Try Equilab with a reasonable calling range. With a (big) piece of luck, you split with AK, that may fold to a c-bet. You could bet for other reasons than equity, hoping he folds worse hands, thus preempting bluffs. But that is a poor excuse to bet, especially when IP.