Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 1+0.25 Tournament, 30/60 Blinds (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB (t1455)
UTG (t2180)
Hero (MP) (t1355)
Button (t1610)
SB (t6900)
Hero's M: 15.06
Preflop: Hero is MP with K♠, K♥
1 fold, Hero bets t180, Button calls t180, 2 folds
Flop: (t450) Q♣, A♣, Q♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t1430 (All-In), Hero folds
Total pot: t450
Originally posted by lulda
I'm contibeting here (300)
Why? what is the purpose of a c-bet here... no A of Q is folding, only hands that you have dominated will fold to a c-bet in this scenario... I prefer to check/fold flop, bet/fold turn...
Originally posted by NickParkes
Originally posted by lulda
I'm contibeting here (300)Why? what is the purpose of a c-bet here... no A of Q is folding, only hands that you have dominated will fold to a c-bet in this scenario... I prefer to check/fold flop, bet/fold turn...
Hm, why suddenly betting the turn after checking the flop? He either is trapping or he has nothing. In both cases we do not gain anything by betting the turn. In case he has nothing he is not likely to bluff twice so we could call one bet, investing the same but winning more from his worse hands.
So I'd either check it through and call one bet on turn or river or b/f the flop to avoid being bluffed out of this hand.
Originally posted by steinek
Originally posted by NickParkes
Originally posted by lulda
I'm contibeting here (300)Why? what is the purpose of a c-bet here... no A of Q is folding, only hands that you have dominated will fold to a c-bet in this scenario... I prefer to check/fold flop, bet/fold turn...
Hm, why suddenly betting the turn after checking the flop? He either is trapping or he has nothing. In both cases we do not gain anything by betting the turn. In case he has nothing he is not likely to bluff twice so we could call one bet, investing the same but winning more from his worse hands.
So I'd either check it through and call one bet on turn or river or b/f the flop to avoid being bluffed out of this hand.
Agreed, sorry, thought we had position... if we did often smaller PPs will call... in this situation it is likely that worse hands may bet, so agreed, check/call turn or river... 
Hm, why suddenly betting the turn after checking the flop? He either is trapping or he has nothing. In both cases we do not gain anything by betting the turn. In case he has nothing he is not likely to bluff twice so we could call one bet, investing the same but winning more from his worse hands.
I'm a bit confused now. Villain doesn't check the flop - he pushes.
I'm not sure why a c-bet is wrong here oop. If villain had a pp, he'll often find a fold given the scary board.
As played, I agree that folding to the push is the right course.
Tim
Originally posted by Tim64
Hm, why suddenly betting the turn after checking the flop? He either is trapping or he has nothing. In both cases we do not gain anything by betting the turn. In case he has nothing he is not likely to bluff twice so we could call one bet, investing the same but winning more from his worse hands.
I'm a bit confused now. Villain doesn't check the flop - he pushes.
I'm not sure why a c-bet is wrong here oop. If villain had a pp, he'll often find a fold given the scary board.
As played, I agree that folding to the push is the right course.
Tim
To point one, we were talking about my alternative line where we don't c-bet the flop...
Point 2: do you really want weaker PPs to fold? To a c-bet stronger hands will call/raise and weaker hands will fold, a c-bet often gets a stronger hand to fold. A pocket pair may bluff-bet the turn giving you more value for your hand. A c-bet here accomplishes none of its goals on this board...
I think Nick answered all of your questions pretty well, Tim. If you still have objections let us know.
Well I think so. I understand the point that we don't want to force worse hands out of the pot as we lose value that way. On the other hand, don't we want to find out where we stand? If we check the flop and villain checks behind we still don't know whether he's slowplaying or not. So we can never get value for our KK unless we are willing to bet. And whether we bet on the flop or later we still have to accept that if V is slowplaying he may raise us and we'll have a difficult decision.
Also, steinek, you said:
So I'd either check it through and call one bet on turn or river or b/f the flop to avoid being bluffed out of this hand.
So surely the second option involves a c-bet?
Sorry if I'm being silly. I have been playing SSS until recently so my post flop play is not very strong.
Thanks again,
Tim
There is no need at all to be sorry. This is exactly what this forum is for to discuss and ask questions non-stop!
Sure, we want to know where we stand but this is just a pretty ugly situation. If we're ahead we will get value very very seldom as the board scares the opponent as well. So in this case we just cannot get value for our kings, this is a pretty important point. This board is just ugly because we will hardly ever win a big pot here. So seeing this board our intention changes. Therefore the question is just: How to minimize our losses against better hands and how to win at least some chips from worse hands? And unless villain is a big bluffer a c-bet is not the answer to any of those questions.
And yes, my second alternative involves a c-bet. As I said against a player who is willing to bluff the check is not a good option as well as he will very ofter try to steal the pot. In this case the c-bet should be the better line to win the pot at least in the majority of the cases where we are still in front.
Originally posted by nworb200
On a different tact shouldn't OP have raised that pre-flop with KK
He did!
3BB which seems pretty fine.
There is no need at all to be sorry. This is exactly what this forum is for to discuss and ask questions non-stop
There is no need at all to be sorry. This is exactly what this forum is for to discuss and ask questions non-stop!
Sure, we want to know where we stand but this is just a pretty ugly situation. If we're ahead we will get value very very seldom as the board scares the opponent as well. So in this case we just cannot get value for our kings, this is a pretty important point. This board is just ugly because we will hardly ever win a big pot here. So seeing this board our intention changes. Therefore the question is just: How to minimize our losses against better hands and how to win at least some chips from worse hands? And unless villain is a big bluffer a c-bet is not the answer to any of those questions.
And yes, my second alternative involves a c-bet. As I said against a player who is willing to bluff the check is not a good option as well as he will very ofter try to steal the pot. In this case the c-bet should be the better line to win the pot at least in the majority of the cases where we are still in front.
Thanks - a very helpful explanation.
Tim
