Problems with JJ preflop

3bet sizing could be smaller in position. 3x seems more than enough on the BTN.
If villain is tight I wouldn't mind to just call in position as well against a 4x raise,
As played read less this is a tricky spot. Against a unknown and a TAG I would just fold and against a LAG I would stack off.

Cheers,
SDK1987

If we assume 5nl players are under bluffing with 4bets and heavily weighted to value i don't think folding is a huge mistake with a hand like JJ.The problem i see with calling preflop is that you lose fold equity and allow hands like AK to realise free equity by seeing a flop and get away cheaply posflop when it misses.I see JJ very much like AK with a lot of ev being in pre flop fold equity and raw equity being tied up with flips vs AK when we get it in.But i don't expect 5nl players are playing anywhere close to balanced ranges in these spots so calling vs heavily weighted value ranges i think is less appealing as is staking off preflop.So i think the way you exploit player tendencies at these stakes is to make the exploitive play and fold to the 4bet without a read that the player is aggressive. I think when we get to QQ it becomes a stack off as villains can now have JJ in their range and our equity should increase considerably.I'm also learning that JJ might not be the greatest hand to stack off with in many spots.

If you take JJ vs a value range of JJ+AK it has 36% equity while QQ vs JJ+AK has 47% equity and vs QQ+AK QQ has 40% equity.So JJ needs to make a chunk of EV in fold equity and i'm not sure players bluff that wide in 4bet pots at these stakes.But QQ should be doing ok vs most ranges equity wise if that makes sense.Unless we know villain 4bets wider as many players aren't even 4betting and stacking off with JJ.

Originally posted by RedsYNWA
If we assume 5nl players are under bluffing with 4bets and heavily weighted to value [1] i don't think folding is a huge mistake with a hand like JJ.

The problem i see with calling preflop is that you lose fold equity [2] and allow hands like AK to realise free equity by seeing a flop and get away cheaply posflop when it misses.

I see JJ very much like AK with a lot of ev being in pre flop fold equity and raw equity being tied up with flips vs AK when we get it in.

But i don't expect 5nl players are playing anywhere close to balanced ranges in these spots so calling vs heavily weighted value ranges i think is less appealing as is staking off preflop.

So i think the way you exploit player tendencies at these stakes is to make the exploitive play and fold to the 4bet [3] without a read that the player is aggressive.

I think when we get to QQ it becomes a stack off as villains can now have JJ in their range and our equity should increase considerably.

I'm also learning that JJ might not be the greatest hand to stack off with in many spots. [4]

Thanks for the detailed reply.
[1] This especially true at lower stakes and sites with loose culture -- like GGPoker, which is where this happened. Even though I lost this hand, it seemed to me that my fold equity increased dramatically after this, in that my 3Bets rarely got called -- which is a shame because it is hard to rebuild a stack just on blinds along.
[2] Precisely why I 3Bet JJ. I might split JJ 50-50 in future, and 3Bet some and flat some. No, I won't use an RNG What I use when I split a range like AA, or KK is if the are both "black" cards I flat, otherwise 3Bet. I don't do this at low stakes though, since nobody notices anything there. To split 50-50 I'll flat if both suits are "black" or both suits are "red" (eg J♥:J♦ If both suits are the same, I'll take a screenshot and contact support
[3] Working on it... <sigh> This happened again, only this time my 3Bet was called, not raised, and in this case villain had baby suited connectors, and I had an overpair vs a flopped straight <sigh>
[4] I've read elsewhere that it is hard to play JJ -- I see it in the same category as AQo -- so easily dominated

JJ is definitely a 3b pre vs CO. Think of a standard CO opening range and how far ahead we are.

I'd call here we're a little deeper.

Also agree with SDK think a little smaller 3b makes it easier to defend and you get villian to call wider.

You can 3bet JJ for value and expect people to make calling mistakes where as the mistake people make with 4bets is they play to tight which is why possibly 3betting for value and making an exploitable fold vs a 4bet is ok.

Originally posted by RedsYNWA
You can 3bet JJ for value and expect people to make calling mistakes where as the mistake people make with 4bets is they play to tight which is why possibly 3betting for value and making an exploitable fold vs a 4bet is ok.

Well put -- I'll keep that in mind...