The ranges you are using from MM, what rake setting they are for?
Another thing is that in reality FE with 3betting when 50bb is very close to 0. Not sure what FE solver assumes it has.
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When using plotrainer I use PLO50 ranges. Fold equity is indeed on very high side, e.g. SB vs CO 53%. So in practice we might not want to use stuff like weaker AKxx combos and perhaps bit more broadway heavy ss combos.
Was wondering why I can still use plotrainer web app as mastermind subscription ended but there seems to be promotion for it. So this week it will be free to use for anyone. Perhaps you have to register into site anyway. So if someone is interested its good time to test it.
Yeah there was this announcement on their discord:
Currently and until Nov 8 (CT time), any PLO Mastermind account has FREE access to the PLO Trainer web app!
This week we'll be adding even more turn sims to our 28,000 library of turns which all lead to every river!
Browse 3 ranges a day and practice 25 hands each!
So the basics of shortstacking PLO is that you play tighter range preflop and 3 bet good hands aggressively? There seem to be some guys that just flat T986sss and whatever crap from SB playing this strategy, I guess they're not doing it right?
And as big stack what could be the most EV preflop play against you 
Should I open 3,5bb when you're in BB and fold more if you 3b, or should I go for smaller opening sizing, do you flat smaller open sizings?
Versus 50bb, you play 50bb strategy. Problems come if there is another deep stack involved. 50bb can still play 50bb strategy, but deeper stacks have to adjust.
At small stakes almost all short stackers play non-solver style. I am a bit curious, how profitable 50bb short stacking is in EV bb/100 vs 100bb game. And what happens to 50bb EV, if he is the only short stacker in the table. As soon as I get my computer up (in the middle of moving) I might fire up some sims. As I am not sure what I expect the answer to be.
But if someone is playing solver 50bb, you can really take him out of his comfort zone by opening smaller. That changes the SPR in all postflop spots. Min opening creates somewhat similar SPR as in pot open 100bb deep. So another interesting question is, which sizing gives better EV from BTN vs blinds. And what if blinds are 50bb and 100bb, how does that affect.
We could even check the results and discuss strategies and adjustments in November Primetime. How about that?
Well if I use e.g. plotrainer to check BUvsCO approach in plo50 50bb and plo500 50bb:
PLO50: Call 3.2%, 3bet 8.5%, assuming CO open 23.3% and folds 61% to 3bet.
PLO500: Call 7.2%. 3bet 7.8%, assuming CO open 24.4% and folds 43% to 3bet.
Now in PLO50 that open raise range might match some players though range construction is very different most likely than in solver. Also no one is folding 60% and that is guaranteed.
Problem in raising BU small is that indeed especially BB is supposed to call wider and we lose fold equity which on raked game is not such a great thing. Probably SB can start call decent amount more also versus minraise at least.
In PLO50 there is like no SB calling versus BU open (0.4%) but in PLO500 it would get quite bit bigger (2.4%). That is versus pot size raise. Indeed when playing versus tag style short stacker correct adjustment is to tighten open raise range as you dont want to end up in situation where you have to call like some mediocre single suit rundown that will then often flop something to go broke but will be easily dominated. So we more preferably be bit more critical about open raising and skip these marginal "equity chase hands".
Well I am by no means good in using this strategy but I just think it does open some nice spots especially in loose games.
Annnd I didnt follow my keep stacks small idea today in plo50 and got screwed as usual. Maybe some bad plays as well.
Both opponents way too loose. BU is 3beting like 30% and never folding to 4bet so I thought its probably fine to include this hand into cold 4bet range. Not sure though. Anyway obviously he will hit top set... Potted flop with SPR bit over 1.
Same villains. CO open, BU call, I squeeze and pot and get it in on flop with SPR 2 (villains were deeper with each other). Not super great spot wither but on such light board even 3way it should be fine imo.
This was toward end of the session and simple tilt play. Should either fold or call preflop even if villain play too wide on BU as well. Again we have no fe. So went 3bet anyway. Flop I checked and turn went for some weird x-r shove. I suppose my thinking was that villain will stab this turn spot super wide and we are decent amount of time ahead with AQ and he is not folding most oesd or better draws. But yeah this hand was quite a mess all together.
This one was probably fine. UTG open, MP call, I call from CO and BU call. Flop UTG check, MP bets half pot (his range I crush) so went for pot raise thinking I cant really fold most likely anyway even if someone 3bets behind. So then all three go allin and I sigh call assuming to have 4-5 outs at best.
In this 3bet this same fellow. He donks half pot on flop which I called. I think we could have raised as well but I thought this flop rarely hit me and having this type of hand in call range is also nice. Well I think its reasonable to have no raise range even in my shoes as flop is simply so rarely hitting me strong.
Turn I call versus 3/4 pot and river goes checked.
Here I was short stacking and went for 3bet versus BU open. Clear pot with SPR 2 on flop. Quite a flop for villain.
Well some won pots as well like this one. Defended BB versus SB open. Raised flop, bet half pot on turn and called shove.
In the end almost 400€ down once again after getting bit of good run going. Well I did make some bad plays like this one. Preflop open raise and call 3bet is close imo. Flop I should have folded to pot size bet but overvalued my hand having bd fd. Though I think with AT86 we should continue but 865 is considerably weaker.
Originally posted by Kyyberi
What do you think solver does, if you have 0 FE for your 3bets?
I think frequencies stay similar but high raw equity hands get more space. If we are in position or in BB there is likely more calling but probably not much more in SB.
And more down as I played for one more short session. One hand I open KQQ8dd, flop comes AdQc5d, turn is 3c and river 7c. Cbet flop 3/4, pot turn and called river donk bet as villain is the maniac who is imo donk betting that river close to 100% of time. Well he had JT73cc so bd fd when I flop set+nfd. Somehow familiar stuff. Maybe I should have found the fold button once again.
Then ended session in one where I get AAKTds, open CO, BU 3bet, SB cold call, I 4bet and BU call. Flop come 998r, I shove SPR 0.8 and villain snaps with JT97ds. Well that was legimite hand at least but would be nice if they didn't hit trips on every damn paired board in 3bet or 4bet pots. 75€ gone in that one.
Better run tomorrow I hope though not sure if I really have any faith in that.
Originally posted by Kyyberi
What do you think solver does, if you have 0 FE for your 3bets?
3 bets less often, especially with a high rake structure.
Edit: If solver is in BB and stacks are 50bb ish then 3 bets might not be reduced so much on account of the BB's possibility of reducing the SPR significantly.
Yeah 3bet frequency will drop if we assume no fe and 50bb open ranges which are very tight. But I wonder if that is case if we try to create sim with commonly too wide open raise ranges people have. Especially in these loose aggro tables those ranges are all over the board so to say. Well then again it will tighten from having fe versus wide ranges though but compared to 50bb gto 3bet range it can still be similar to those with no fe.
Well that was probably very messy line of thought above ♦
Played two short session today so far. Around 120€ profit mainly in plo25 tables. I think its best for me to avoid those really splashy plo50 games for now. Not good for mental side and I do end up making some bad plays which doesnt help either.
Messy or not, November PLO Primetime is all about 50bb stuff. Will do a bunch of 4max sims (as they are faster and easier to compare) so we can compare different CO, BU, SB and BB preflop strategies. Versus loose openers, loose callers, no FE to 3bets and what else.
Originally posted by ghaleon
Played two short session today so far. Around 120€ profit mainly in plo25 tables. I think its best for me to avoid those really splashy plo50 games for now. Not good for mental side and I do end up making some bad plays which doesnt help either.
i love this idea of comfort zone and "not having to play" this ugly game that sometimes makes you feel disgusted... grinding and losing does feel quite bad. and in high-swing games we cannot sometimes even estimate our edge. let's say I lose for 10k hands. now I don't know why, what's my edge and so on. at least i have improved during this time....
Nice session today. Played mostly plo25 with 200€ profit. Few hands:
Could also cbet 1/3 my whole range but villain had been pretty stab happy versus missed cbet in general so went for trap.
Game #1581840157: Table €25 PL - 0.10/0.25 - Pot Limit Omaha - 18:04:45 2021/11/07
Seated players
Seat 1: _Superior_ (€53.22)
Seat 2: jupiler1971 (€28.77)
Seat 3: 5amba (€26.01)
Seat 4: Qarratero (€25.61)
Seat 5: Muppo (€75.84)
Seat 6: SteroSlots19 (€16.02)
Blinds and button
5amba has the button
Qarratero posts small blind €0.10
Muppo posts big blind €0.25
Hole cards
Dealt to Muppo A♦:A♠:J♠:6♥:
Preflop
SteroSlots19 calls €0.25
_Superior_ folds
jupiler1971 raises €1.10 to €1.10
5amba folds
Qarratero folds
Muppo raises €3.40 to €3.65
SteroSlots19 folds
jupiler1971 calls €2.55
Flop K♥:6♦:6♠:
Muppo checks
jupiler1971 bets €5.01
Muppo calls €5.01
Turn 5♥:
Muppo checks
jupiler1971 bets €17.67
Muppo raises €35.34 to €35.34
jupiler1971 calls €2.44, and is all-in
Uncalled bet returned to Muppo: €15.23
Showdown
River 5♣:
jupiler1971 shows 8♣:4♦:7♣:9♥:, A Pair of Sixes
Muppo shows [Ad As Js 6h], Three of a kind, Sixes
Muppo wins €56.15
This one was interesting to check with plotrainer. I were kind of wondering if villain wants to cbet flop. In game villain cbet 1/4 pot and I went for half pot raise, pot turn and pot river. Could have gone bit bigger on flop to actually get allin on river and not leave bit over SPR 1 on river. But I thought to go kind of small having such overkill hit on flop. But I think using 3/4 size would probably make more sense.
Anyway in plotrainer with half pot sizing QQxx is checking 72% of time. QQT5 with one or two bd fd is betting 60% of time and calling x-r. On this turn card QQT5 blocking one of his own outs should actually fold. My bluffs in practice will be mainly TT or JJ combos on flop and on turn if I have fd to go with I am supposed to pot practically always and somewhat selectively with low equity ones. So villain blocking his outs and also having T♠: is pretty bad combo to continue.
This one was in HU in BB. So BU/SB open and I 3bet A998. Seems to be solver approved even with just 20% fe in gto. In this flop I would check my whole range as default. Flop went checked. On turn I check and villain bet 3/4 pot and I think call is only option. River was very lucky one especially as villain was kind of slowplaying. I would imagine hand like that would want to bet for protection. Curious to check plotrainer.... Anyway river went for x-r.
Ok so in trainer on 654r AT65 would bet 80% of time and those checking mainly have no bd fd or its not to nuts or have three suit. So I think villain would benefit from stab especially as player pool tend to have very capped check range anyway,
This one is also interesting one imo. I 3bet from BU versus CO open. check flop, call 3/4 pot on turn and shoved versus river bet. So in game I did wonder if bet or check is better on flop. Playability is not great by checking but I didnt expect much fe either by betting half pot. Now this is questionable to check in plotrainer as CO is supposed to donk bet 60% of time on this flop. But in reality that is more like 20% maybe which mean CO has stronger check range. Solver still only bets 30% of time in my shoes and in practice we might want to be even more passive.
Turn is mandatory call. I think I would call A river and some of pairing rivers. Likely would have folded most other non improving rivers.
