A5s on BB vs CO, SPR, facing overbet on turn, wet board

Against that overbet, I'm hoping I would fold —
 worst of the Ax two-pair hands
 two flush draws — and I have neither
 several straight draws, and I have no part of any of 'em
 4 outs to a boat.

So after all that, I'm guessing solver says shove.
I don't know which solver you use, but most of them are programmed to "do the opposite of what Vorpal does 70%, do something else that he wouldn't do 30%"

Call the turn.

Originally posted by AgapieGheorghe
Call the turn.

That's what solver wants to do.

My guess for that are,

1. If true, then the value range has us killed.
2. If it's some sort of merged range, then we want to encourage it.
3. If it's some sort of semi-bluff, then the villain charged himself to draw.
4. If it's some sort of bluffs, then we want him to continue to bluff.

That's not what I did on turn though.

Calling seems the most logic option. Over betting of villain is weird, but you have a decent bluff catcher. Shoving would be over play and folding seems tight.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Dont like the idea to just call turn oop with two flushdraws on the board. What would you do on the river if spade or heart falls and you face another bet? It's better to raise and charge all his semi bluffs imo.

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
Dont like the idea to just call turn oop with two flushdraws on the board. What would you do on the river if spade or heart falls and you face another bet? It's better to raise and charge all his semi bluffs imo.

Raising means basically shoving with the stack dynamic and than you get only action of better I think.

What would we do if a spade or a heart falls and we face aggression? With 1 flushdraw out i will call 100% of the time but with 2 shoving for protection would be the most preferable option for me

Even if he is aggressive enough to bluff his busted draws we'll have hard time on a big chunk of river cards

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
Dont like the idea to just call turn oop with two flushdraws on the board. What would you do on the river if spade or heart falls and you face another bet? It's better to raise and charge all his semi bluffs imo.

It's natural to think that and CR like I did but like I mentioned before there are many reasons that solver prefers calling 99.1% of the time.

Originally posted by SDK1987

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
Dont like the idea to just call turn oop with two flushdraws on the board. What would you do on the river if spade or heart falls and you face another bet? It's better to raise and charge all his semi bluffs imo.

Raising means basically shoving with the stack dynamic and than you get only action of better I think.

This is true.

If I was to simplify this,

vs our turn CR,

25% of the time, we get stuffed on by better
25% of the time, we shut down thin value
25% of the time, we shut down bluffs
25% of the time, we may or we may not get action from semi-bluffs

Edit: typo

J,8,T,K,Q, every spade, every heart. There is like 20+ river cards that we are not happy to see. Calling here seems a bit risky imo.

Issue with x-shove is if we isolate ourselves versus better mostly. We still have SPR close to 9 when coming to turn. Interesting question is what rivers are we calling again? What is our general response to overbet here with drawing hands? I would imagine we have to fold most plain fd hands without additional straight outs or at least pair? Which means we probably need to call fair amount of low to mid straight completing cards at least?

But yeah it will bring tough river spots but that is not great argument for x-r this deep when villain polarizes his range with overbet. In general versus overbets solver probably rarely raises for that reason. Reason villain is using overbets should be him having range advantage (at least) on nutty hands in first place.

But yeah it will bring tough river spots but that is not great argument for x-r this deep

Yes it is, especially if we dont have a clear idea of how to respond if a nasty card falls and villian makes a third barrel

It's argument but not great one when SPR is that high. When we get called we are very very often almost dead. Which means it's pretty tough to not do better with call imo.

OK we have 2 pairs, top and botom pair. Preflop and flop all is OK.
On the turn he is overbetting - it looks like to force you to fold with 2 spades.
We have 4 outs. FD is agains us, SD is agains us
So fold or call both could be possible by playing style.

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
Dont like the idea to just call turn oop with two flushdraws on the board. What would you do on the river if spade or heart falls and you face another bet? It's better to raise and charge all his semi bluffs imo.

I would call turn and fold river if a FD gets there and V bets. There is nothing wrong with folding in that situation, but V might check river who knows. Raising turn is over playing the hand imo...we can't win every hand and sometimes we may lay down the better hand. If the FD doesn't get there I think you've got to willing to call a lot of rivers provided it doesn't change the board texture dramatically