[Closed] Icm trainer shoves to tight?

realy depends on the players & stacks , first one would shove wider than that as you still have some fold equity

but second hand the bb has only 3bb to call and getting almost 2/1 to call so has odds to call with any two but if you get into that position think you just have to try your luck anyway expecting bb to call

Even if the blinds might increase later, the current level of the blinds determines how many chips you gain if you steal the blinds.

You are looking ahead to hitting the blinds. However, a lot can happen before then. If you don't push on the button, you have several valuable free hands to go before you hit the blinds. Those are all valuable free opportunities to pick up a better hand. Also, if you hit the blinds, that doesn't mean you are executed. Whether you have 6 bb or only 1 bb, it is possible to survive posting the blinds.

Many players overvalue weak Kxo hands. Particularly at K8o and below, you have little equity when you are called after you shove from the BTN or earlier with 5+ bb. That K2o is a favorite over a random hand doesn't matter because you are not going to get called by a random hand, and what you really want is more equity against the calling range. To a lesser extent, it is valuable to have an ace in your hand to block your opponents from having calling hands.

Suppose you have opponents who call with 44+ A2s+ A5o+ KTs+ KJo+ QJ. (That's tight enough that you would want to push your offsuit kings, but ignore that for the moment.) How much equity do you have with K8o when you are called? 34.4%. (K6o has 33.6%.) By contrast, 87s has 38.1% equity, A2o has 37.2%, and T9o has 36.7%. Weak offsuit kings are surprisingly weak pushing hands except from the small blind.

Pzhon: I hear what you're saying, it's just that if the blinds increase and I haven't gained any chips by then, I would have lost my fold equity. I know you're saying I can pick up a hand, or even survive the blinds going through me, but isn't it more important to build a stack that actually has a chance of getting in top 3 and not just crawl into the money?

But it's nice to see that suited connectors are better to push, and about an ace in the hand I know you say that it blocks a little, but it's the same situation with A rags as K rags only that with A rags we have even more hands that dominates us? Or does the fact that we take out an ace from the deck counter this?

Hope you understand my question.

Another thing, thanks for the great video, looking forward to more.

Hey Lindberg,

in order to give an answer to your question you need to tell us the other stacksizes.

Also it is important to know how much players are left. It makes a huge difference in these formats whether we ar on the bubble, at some significant prizejump, or with 65 players left.

Afaik the ICM Trainer doesn't work for 180Pl SNGs btw. You probably checked your shove for 50/30/20 Payoutstructure right?

If you aren't on the Bubble K6 is def a shove in a 180pl SNG in most situations with a 5BB stack on the button first in...

Let's put it this way: even if blinds are calling perfectly, you are probably not making large mistake by pushing K6o. Blinds on other hand can make mistake by calling too tightly.

Originally posted by Lindberg789
Pzhon: I hear what you're saying, it's just that if the blinds increase and I haven't gained any chips by then, I would have lost my fold equity. I know you're saying I can pick up a hand, or even survive the blinds going through me, but isn't it more important to build a stack that actually has a chance of getting in top 3 and not just crawl into the money?

If you have lost your folding equity, that means you will get called if you push, so you have an easier time doubling up if you get a good hand. If the blinds double, then double up with an overlay, and you are back to the number of big blinds you had before.

Many people panic at the thought of losing folding equity. That is unprofitable. Proper tournament play includes playing well with a short stack. You can bounce back from having a "chip and a chair." It is not better to have a short stack than a larger stack, but just about every model of tournament equity says that a short stack's chips are proportionally more valuable than a big stack's chips.

But it's nice to see that suited connectors are better to push, and about an ace in the hand I know you say that it blocks a little, but it's the same situation with A rags as K rags only that with A rags we have even more hands that dominates us? Or does the fact that we take out an ace from the deck counter this?

It is a common misconception that it is bad to push "easily dominated" Ax hands, that connectors are better. In fact, Ax hands usually have more equity than connectors do. A7s does significantly better than 76s against most ranges, and A7o is usually significantly better than 76o. Against a tight range, it is important that A7 can draw out on TT-KK by catching an ace. Against a loose range, it is important that A7 is sometimes ahead of KQ or A5. This is not to say that A3o is better than T9s.

Originally posted by JayGatsby
Hey Lindberg,

in order to give an answer to your question you need to tell us the other stacksizes.

Also it is important to know how much players are left. It makes a huge difference in these formats whether we ar on the bubble, at some significant prizejump, or with 65 players left.

While this is true, tournaments which pay 1/10 of the players have average stack sizes of 10 times the starting stack when the bubble bursts. Since the hero had 1130, and PokerStars 180s usually have starting stacks of 1500, it's safe to assume this is far from the money.

Afaik the ICM Trainer doesn't work for 180Pl SNGs btw. You probably checked your shove for 50/30/20 Payoutstructure right?

An alternative is to use the Nash Calculator on HoldemResources.net. You can set the prize structure to 1 (winner takes all) or add a second place prize which you believe gives you the appropriate level of risk aversion.

Oddly, the BTN pushing range is not that sensitive to changes in risk aversion when all players have equal stacks. The Nash pushing range is 36.7% for a winner takes all tournament which is not far from the early play in a MTT. It is 40.0% if you are 6-handed in a 50-30-20 structure, where rational risk aversion is significant.

If you aren't on the Bubble K6 is def a shove in a 180pl SNG in most situations with a 5BB stack on the button first in...

This may exploit your opponents' tendency to fold too much, but it is not solid poker.

Wow a lot of replies. Nice.

Jaygatsby: I just used the icm trainer with normal stucture setting it to train hands when 8-9 are still left and hero edge 0.
I thought I could train pushes with icm that sort of reminded of the range I should be pushing in 180 man when far from the bubble?

If I can't use icm trainer to train these kind of pushes what can I use then?

Pzhon: Set the structure to winner takes all and then it is close correct pushes as in a 180 man tourney far from the bubble?
Okay I think i got what you're saying about fold equity. Thanks for your replies.

Originally posted by Lindberg789
Jaygatsby: I just used the icm trainer with normal stucture setting it to train hands when 8-9 are still left and hero edge 0.
I thought I could train pushes with icm that sort of reminded of the range I should be pushing in 180 man when far from the bubble?

Ah right I just saw that there are only slight differences in Pushing Ranges with 9handed 50/30/20 vs Nash Calculator at 1.0.

I really begin to like these discussions with Pzhon. Again and again I learn sth where I automatically thougt Id have an easy decision.

Yeah he really seems great and knows his stuff.
But thanks for the replies, I will go back to the icm trainer and train pushes until my internet is fixed again so I can start playing tourneys again.

I think pzhon said all to ur problem

ICM trainer dont have the payout of the 180er, so u cant look up ur hands.
maybe u should read abit about icm in gerneral