NL Basic Short Stack Strategy by Leo258

    • Leo
      Leo
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.01.2008 Posts: 4,512
      Hi Guys,

      In this thread I will be evaluating the basic SSS-coachings we've had. I would greatly appreciate any feedback or comments regarding these sessions.

      With kind regards,
      Leo
  • 89 replies
    • Leo
      Leo
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.01.2008 Posts: 4,512
      Hi guys,

      Yesterday we had our first coaching. There were a lot of interesting questions regarding subjects such as BRM, pushing AK or not, moving up the limits as fast as possible, gaining PS-points faster and more ;)
      Hopefully all of the awnsers to your questions were satisfactory. If you have any left or feel you still need to ask something, please don't hesitate to leave a message.
      During the session we've played 428 hands resulting in a profit of the whopping total of $0.12 :D (hope this awnsers your question gerv ;) )

      The most interesting hands played were the following two:
      1. $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
        9 players
        Converted at weaktight.com

        Stacks:
        MP3 ($21.25)
        Hero ($5.45)

        Pre-flop: ($0.35, 9 players) Hero is BB J:heart: K:club:
        4 folds, MP3 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero checks

        Flop: T:heart: 8:diamond: 9:spade: ($0.60, 2 players)
        Hero bets $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50

        Turn: 8:club: ($1.60, 2 players)
        Hero checks, MP3 checks

        River: T:spade: ($1.60, 2 players)
        Hero checks, MP3 checks

        Final Pot: $1.60
        Hero shows: J:heart: K:club:
        MP3 shows: 9:diamond: J:diamond:

        MP3 wins $1.52 ( won +$0.77 )
        Hero lost -$0.75

        We find KJo on the BB and get a freeplay after MP3's limp.
        The flop brings us an open-ended straight draw. Because we also have 2 overcards the article about draws in a free play situation tells us this is a monster draw. Monster draws should be played just like a made hand and therefore we bet out. We do this for a bit more then 2/3rd pot, because the pot is very small after a free play. We want a big pot and therefore bet out more then usual.
        The turn pairs the board, resulting in us slowing down. It is usually recommended to play less aggressive when boards pair. Unfortunately we don't complete our draw.


      2. $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
        10 players
        Converted at weaktight.com

        Stacks:
        MP1 ($6.77)
        BTN ($9.33)
        Hero ($5.62)

        Pre-flop: ($0.35, 10 players) Hero is BB K:diamond: 6:spade:
        3 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 3 folds, BTN calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero checks

        Flop: 3:spade: 7:diamond: K:spade: ($0.85, 3 players)
        Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.25, BTN calls $0.25, Hero folds

        Turn: 5:spade: ($1.35, 2 players)
        MP1 bets $3.25, BTN goes all-in $8.83, MP1 goes all-in $3.02

        River: A:heart: ($16.45, 2 players)

        Final Pot: $16.45
        MP1 shows: 3:heart: 3:club:
        BTN shows: A:spade: 2:spade:

        BTN wins $15.76 ( won +$6.43 )
        Hero lost -$0.25
        MP1 lost -$6.77

        We find K6o on the BB and again get a free play. This time we're up against 2 opponents. The flop gives us top-pair, no kicker and a back-door flush draw. As mentioned earlier the pot is very small after a free play (in comparison to a hand you have bet pre-flop which is also called by the opponent).
        Though villain makes a minbet, which is called by our other opponent, we still have to fold, as we're not holding top-pair, top kicker or better.
        This is explained in the article about how to play trash hands.

      Next week, I will supply you with a new SHC, which offers all possible situations on just 1 page; e.g. how to play draws, how to (dis)count outs, normal SHC, stack:raise ratio, etc.

      A learning-guide will also be supplied. In this learning guide you can see which topics you should learn on any given limit. This makes sure you have a clear view on which topics you should be working on.
      Further more, this also gives a nice roadmap for you to see how SSS can evolve for you.

      The next coaching will be on Saturday, June 21st at 18.00, so an hour later.

      Hope you enjoyed the coaching and this long review ;)

      Kind regards,
      Leo
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      As 2 days ago, I witnessed a massive beatdown swing on NL10 SSS so I decided to join the coaching of SSS and see how they play.
      Also I want to become familiar with the coaching system so that gave me 2 reasons to join this session.

      Leo258, welcome to the Male Club where you can do only 1 thing at the time :D - Unfortunately I did not have met the Dutch community as I am Dutch myself.

      Well to give you some (constructive) feedback:

      - You are really in to answering questions and all questions have been answered thoroughly and complete so I give you credit for that

      - Your pronunciation is solid and OK

      - I did not saw many actions on the Tables, that could happen with SSS but if you got action, you stated the hole cards you have audiovisual. This means that if someone missed this ( I hope not ) he doesn't know what you are talking about. Maybe you could type in the chat window what hole cards you have when you decide to play.

      - I do not know what the reason was to play on the limit $0.10/$0.25 but as it was a Bronze Coaching session, I thought you were playing in NL10 ($0.05/$0.1) as if every Bronze member starts with his/her initial $50.


      For your first session, you did great and I see you next week ofcourse ;)
      I really enjoyed it so thanks!

      Gerv


      PS After the coaching , I did a session of 2 hours and it made me +$7 :D
    • Drakhor
      Drakhor
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.01.2008 Posts: 554
      I joined the coaching about an hour late, but I liked it. Are you really a Dutch, Leo? You sound very British to me, very London-ish (all those "mates" :D ).

      Sound quality was also very good. What headset/mic do you use?
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,354
      Was a good session. From what I heard I'd never say it was your first time. I liked the in-depth answers, tho the table action was scarce, but watcha gonna do. One doesn't get into tough situations every other hand. All in all a great coaching session and looking forward to tunning into more :)
    • Cersei
      Cersei
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2008 Posts: 29
      That was my first coaching session and gotta say, it was a good one. As for your English, I'd say you've worked in London for a year or more when you left school?

      Or maybe your shopaholic girlfriend is a Londoner and is teaching you English with a London accent ;-)

      Either way, your English is as good as mine.
    • Cersei
      Cersei
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2008 Posts: 29
      There was one question I forgot to ask in the coaching.

      I've played about 10k hands with SSS on NL10 and there's days when I just don't get any action at all. That's fair enough. I still try to stick to the SHC most of the time, unless I've got a read or I just can't help myself bluffing the river when it's been checked since the flop (I will try to stop doing this though, honestly I will ;-)

      But nothing makes me more disgruntled than having pocket As, Ks or Qs, raising it up and just collecting the blinds.

      Let's face it, on Party Poker, as soon as you sit down at a table with the minimum buy in and play really tight, peeps are gonna know you're a short stacker pretty much straight away. On top of that, they're gonna be using poker ace hud too and probably have stats on you and my VP is usually around 10 so they know I'm tighter than a nuns ****

      So, what I've started doing recently, especially if I'm in early position, when I get pocket As, Ks or Qs, I limp in hoping to induce others to limp and finally the cut-off, button or blinds to come in and punish us limpers. Then I go all-in. It seems to be working for me but there have been a couple of times when it came back to bite me in the ass but hey, that's poker ;-)

      So, is such a move justified given my tight image at the table or should I just stop being naughty and stick to playing proper SSS?
    • Leo
      Leo
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.01.2008 Posts: 4,512
      Hi all!

      Tnx for the great replies! :)

      @Gerv; Yes, sometimes it's hard to follow what's going on when viewing a coaching. I've also noticed this when watching coachings. For a coach it's very hard to also type in the cards, as there isn't much time to do all this. It's therefore probably best to ask in the channel which cards were dealt so other viewers can awnser you.
      For your other question: There isn't a real reason for not playing NL10, other then that I thought it might be handy for you guys to see what's going on on the next limit. This way you can perhaps see differences between your current level (NL10) and the level of the coaching (NL25). I'm quite interested if you have noticed any...

      @Drakhor/Cersei: Though I do have an English passport, I was actually born in Holland. My entire family's from London + I used to love Derek and Clive (London Underground toilet cleaners act) :)
      Regarding the headset, Ive recently purchased a Logitech USB thingie for 30EUR or smtn, after getting some advice at the store... No idea what type it is though :D

      @Atoks: Yeah, it's hard getting many hands with SSS. Hopefully you didn't get bored too much though ^^

      @Cersei: I had a real laugh @ "honestly I will". This is so recognizable :D
      Everyone has had this problem, so yea... It is a big leak though, and you should really try not to do this ;)
      On NL10/NL25 (if this is your limit), I disagree that you will be recognized as being a short stacker straight away though. In the coming days, just try to have a look @ other short stackers on your limit, and please let me know what you think about them. Try to put yourself in their position and see if you would've played the same or not. I think you will be quite surprised. Please let me know at the next coaching what you have seen!
      And yea, do stop being naughty. Sure, it's anoying not getting action on your monsters. Being sucked out on em is even worse though (and more frustrating and more expensive). The non-action is the better option ;)
      In stead try watching those other short stackers to get your mind focussed om something else, and do let me know ;)

      Kind regards,
      Leo
    • Cersei
      Cersei
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2008 Posts: 29
      lol. I'm not going to bluff the river or slow play my monsters. I must resist....RESIST!! ;-)

      I'll have a look at the other SSS players and let ya know.

      Thx
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,354
      Well that's a good question about differences between NL10 and NL25. From what I've seen so far there is hardly any difference, but I've only watched u play a few hundred hands on that coaching session on NL25. Maybe we could revisit this question after 2 or 3 coaching sessions :)

      I had a few thoughts about SSS... about how I didn't get enough hands to push and what Cersei said about ppl recognizing the tight image and avoiding playing u... Poker is hard. And I guess the hardest thing with SSS is staying patient, keeping focused on the strategy u are supposed to play and just give it ur best in those tight situations that do come your way. It's often hard, but in the past few days after the coaching I took down some pretty nice pots, partly due to what I learned and partly due to what I came to see and understand about my opponents (had no suck outs yay :P ).
      If it gets boring just watch them play. Might not do u much good just now but when u move to BSS and higher limits u'll at least be used to it. Any info one has on a player is better then no info. What I do on Titan poker is that I mark every player I've seen play a bad hand with the "buddy" icon and I have notes on several ten players already. Practice makes perfect.

      Also is there a topic about making notes on players? Cause the Titan poker info windows on minitables are really shitty small and it's hard to make a proper note in those and I could use a few pointers about how to make a good note anyways. On another engine I just copy/paste the whole hand into the notes window but that gets cumbersome very fast.

      Apart from that I can say SSS WORKS :D I haven't exactly earned millions but I won a few nice pots recently and I can't wait to exploit my tight image on NL10 when I switch to BSS :D Gonna be awesome lol
    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      I've actually been successfully implementing SSS for a little bit now, but that doesn't mean I know all there is to know about it. I'd love to watch a coach play. (I have watched the videos as well on the site).

      I just wish more of these sessions were on PokerStars. The only sessions I ever see on stars are SNG. I'm not currently into that, so haven't tuned in.

      Either that, or it would be nice if the coaching sessions were recorded so we could watch them later.

      Even though I've not been able to join the coaching sessions, I'd like to thank Leo258 for taking the time to do them, and share his experience with others.
    • Leo
      Leo
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.01.2008 Posts: 4,512
      Hey guys,

      Really nice to see you're all growing :D

      @Atoks; There is a German FL-article on note taking Markomar recently wrote. This will be translated soon, but if you want to have a look at the German version already, it can be found here. I can really recommend it, as it's a pretty good read. There will also soon be a NL version of it, but even out of the FL version, you, as an SSS-player, can learn a lot of things. Just keep an eye on the article to see if whether or not it's translated ;) Or just keep poking Dakhor about it :D
      Anyway, Very nice to see your now growing patient... That's what SSS is all about. Hopefully you can get even more profit :)

      @Velak; If the coachings turn out to be a succes, a second one coaching might follow. I will suggest this taking place on Stars for you ;)
      Either way, you can still download the party software and watch the coaching on saturday if you have time. Hope to see you there!

      Good luck to y'all with SSS-ing and hopefully Saturday even more ppl will be visiting the coaching.

      May Holland become European Champs!!! :D

      Best regards,
      Leo
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,354
      Good stuff about the note making article! So Drakhor mate... how's them translations coming along? :P

      On Holland being the Euro champs... they blew me away lol. But can't really decide between Holland or Spain... maybe they could play in the finals and duke it out :D

      Oh one last thing, can those who play SSS for a longer time now say how much variance they are experiencing? From positive to negative?
    • Drakhor
      Drakhor
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.01.2008 Posts: 554
      Originally posted by Atoks
      Good stuff about the note making article! So Drakhor mate... how's them translations coming along? :P
      I do have a FL Gold article in the works currently, but it isn't the one Leo mentioned. :tongue:

      Could be though that it appears next on my To Do list. :)
    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      Originally posted by Leo258
      @Velak; If the coachings turn out to be a success, a second one coaching might follow. I will suggest this taking place on Stars for you ;)

      Either way, you can still download the party software and watch the coaching on Saturday if you have time. Hope to see you there!

      That would be great. I don't have an account on Party Poker right now, and I'm hesitant to create one. I'd really prefer to keep my play on one site. Seems it would be counter-intuitive to split it between sites. I DO realize I could just use the Party account for just the coachings, and keep my normal play on stars.

      Since most sites don't allow you to go back later and get sign-up bonuses, (once you have an account with them, even if it's only a play money account) I don't really want to just sign up for one just to be able to "look in" on a coaching session, in case I later decide to play on that site, before I've taken the time to do some research regarding sign up bonuses, rakeback deals, free money/gifts, etc.

      I also know Party doesn't do rakeback, but there are other sign up bonuses I could check into if/when I am in the mood to do that research.

      Additionally, I don't want to have to go through the hassle it causes because I am an American (American ID's, etc..) but currently not living in the U.S, and Party doesn't accept U.S. players. If I wrote about my experience trying to make a deposit on Stars for my first deposit bonus, you wouldn't believe it.

      Fortunately Stars support is very responsive and things got taken care of (eventually), but wow.. what a hassle that was.

      I'll keep my eyes open for posted videos and such as well.

      Again, thank you!
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Hey Velak,

      You only need to have playmoney accounts to view coachings at Party so it shouldn't really be a problem :)

      Best regards,
      SoyCD
    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      Aye, I know, thank you. (I mentioned that in my post above). :D

      For me, it's a little more complicated than that.
    • dallievas
      dallievas
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.11.2007 Posts: 822
      Hi Leo,
      That was a nice coaching and I liked it very much.I found the coaching accidentally and joined it about 15 minutes late but it was not my fault(I`m coachings fan).Shame on you Tribun for not making proper publicity campaign and poker saints should punish you for that....let`s say -1 point in Battle of the donkeys.
      I liked your explanations in depth because most of us know the chart and played some sss before.I hope you play more tables next time and explain more intermediate problems like blindstealing,free play problems,begining of stats use etc.I hope you will remember your promise about top secret sss charts.I`ve read about them here: SSS Full Tilt NL10
      About 2d hand- pretty standard play with trash hand,but sometimes(<20%) I do cbet in such situations even against several opps and c/f to bigger action .I`m exploiting my tag image at the table and usually opps tend to fold.I would like to see more not standard situations.Some time ago Berliner couldn`t coach us and Tribun Ceasar replaced him.It was interesting experience to watch how BSS guys played SSS-more reads,more aggressive with draws etc.
      Yeah and nice Hugh Grant`s pronunciation.Thanks and looking forward to tune in.
      :) :) :)
    • Leo
      Leo
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.01.2008 Posts: 4,512
      Hi again!

      @Atoks: About your question regarding SSS; There isn't a real answer to it I'm afraid. How would a certain amount of variance be defined? Like with all poker-variants, SSS can also bring you a very, very long down swing. Any duration of a down swing is mathematically possible, but as time progresses, it becomes less and less likely.
      Hopefully that answered your question :rolleyes:

      @velak; afaik making a free account, wont need you to register any strange stuff, resulting in you having to go through lots of hassle. Further more, such things wouldn't interfere with your first deposit bonus for example, as you wouldn't have made a cash-account yet. But maybe there's other difficulties for you ;) Hopefully we'll see ya there anyway.

      @dallievas; Sure thing! Tomorrow I will offer you a compact SHC, as stated in the OP. Maybe you can try and get some hands together where you use your tight image to cbet vs more then 1 opponent, so we can discuss em tomorrow. Mostly (especially on low limits), I think this move would be -EV, but getting some hands together to talk about em would be great!

      As this coaching is a bronze one, it is mostly aimed on players up until NL25 (ofcourse you can join when you play on higher limits too!). Most of the players here don't use stats yet. Also, the SSS-articles offered to bronze members don't include playing with stats or stealing. Last but not least, stealing on <NL50 isn't recommended and may well turn out to be a losing strategy in the long run on these limits. You will also see this in the limit-by-limit learning document I mentioned in the OP. So please forgive me for not addressing these subjects, as it would not be a part of the recommended playing style for a large proportion of the coaching-visitors.

      Playing draws aggressively however, WILL be part of our coaching Saturday :D

      Nonetheless, for a silver SSS-coaching, for example, these subjects could be part of the coaching, as it is part of the silver learning material. Furthermore, these coachings are mainly aimed on players on NL50, where stealing becomes important, and surely +EV. More players use stats on these limits, so it would certainly make sense here. Unfortunately, we don't offer these coachings (yet).

      Thanks for the kind reviews and cya tomorrow,

      With kind regards,
      Leo


      p.s. don't forget to wear your orange hats during coaching!
    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      Originally posted by Leo258

      @velak; afaik making a free account, wont need you to register any strange stuff, resulting in you having to go through lots of hassle. Further more, such things wouldn't interfere with your first deposit bonus for example, as you wouldn't have made a cash-account yet. But maybe there's other difficulties for you ;) Hopefully we'll see ya there anyway.
      Well, for example, on PokerStars, if you set up an account, even if it's only a play money account, you cannot then go set up a real money account and still link it to PokerStrategy. (or any other affiliate) This "rule" seems to be the same with other poker sites. Once you set up an account, you're DONE. You can't go back later and pick the best affiliate/bonus offer/rakeback deal, etc for your situation with any poker site.

      If you make a free money account, (using partypoker.net links) you can't even see real money tables, so doing that, I wouldn't be able to view your tables during the coaching. (I know, I tried).

      Since that won't work you HAVE to set up a "real money" account (even though you don't have to deposit real money at that moment). But, in doing so, if you want to use a bonus code, you HAVE to use it when you create the account. You don't have a choice to enter it later. This is turn starts the clock ticking on the time you can use that bonus, which.. again, is something I was hoping to avoid (on ANY site) until the day comes that I decide a site is actually worth playing on.

      So, fine.

      I went ahead and downloaded the software and used the PokerStrategy.com code. I'm sure it's going to be a hassle if I ever decide to play there. The code will expire before I get to play there. This was the point I was trying to get at. Since you can only EVER sign up to a site ONCE, and you cannot then later take advantage of "bonus codes" I didn't want to have to sign up for a site (any site, not just partypoker) until I was intending to play on that site. so I could then use the best bonuses available to me at THAT time.

      So, now, I am pretty much locked in to never being able to receive a sign-up bonus on party, should I choose to play there on some future date.

      Getting money onto Stars took me over a month to accomplish, and this was with a half dozen emails per day going back and forth between stars security in that time. Stars support is excellent and it STILL took a month plus a couple of days to do.

      My life situation is not very cookie-cutter, so it's a bit of a pain. I'm American, my ID's are all American, my passport is American, etc. I just am not living in the U.S. right now. Where I am living, I don't have any bills in my name, so PROVING I live here was annoying. I also don't have a credit card in my name anymore, since I did away with credit cards along with my shopaholic wife. :)

      My Bank account statements of course, DO have my current address on them, however, no matter what we tried, we just could not get echecks to work. I appreciate Star's support, but I don't ever want to go through that again. I had to send scans of my bank statements along with my girlfriend's credit card, front and back and a lot of other documentation which they INSISTED be sent over normal, unsecured email.

      I'm actually one of the people setting up the networking for the 2010 Olympics, so it's safe to say, hopefully without sounding too arrogant, that I'm bit more educated on the workings of the internet than the average Joe, and I simply refused to send these documents to them in an unsecure manner. I would not accept this.

      In the end, I won out, and they finally were forced to accept my encrypted emails, because there was just no way in hell I was sending that stuff over normal email.

      Unless I'm mistaken, Party still doesn't accept U.S. Players, so if you think getting money onto Stars was not easy, I can only imagine it on a site that doesn't accept U.S. players, AND doesn't have as good of support as Stars.

      Anyway, none of this belongs in this thread, and I've left out the vast majority of the problems, for the sake of brevity, but I couldn't find any way to send a personal message.

      I apologize for this, but please accept that because something is simple for most people doesn't mean the situation/experiences are identical for everyone and sometimes it's things are just not the way they appear.

      Edit: In the end, I now have partypoker installed, even though it's going to mean my wasting a sign-up bonus, since I have no intention of trying to go through the serious hassle of getting money onto that site, but I'll try to join the coachings.