[Closed] QQ in BB RUSH

even though its reallly ugly i think given that its a 3b pot and given his stats u gotta b/c the flop

Why are you betting flop? From which hands are you gonna get value? May be just 9x but you hold QQ so you decrease his outs. I rather check behind for pot control.

As played, I bet / snap fold. He mostly have sets or JT. I guess he has JT given his stats.

...

I really think this guy does have other Jx in his range maybe even QK oo something so i still like b/c over b/f although checking for pot control is good.

Nh imo!

We need 37.5% to call. Even against a very strong range like { TT+, 88, KcQc, KdQd, KhQh, JTs, T9s, 98s } we have 35%:
Board: Jh Td 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.853% 62.92% 01.93% 19311 592.50 { TT+, 88, KcQc, KdQd, KhQh, JTs, T9s, 98s }
Hand 1: 35.147% 33.22% 01.93% 10194 592.50 { QdQh }

If he has JTs he certainly has other Jx in his range like AJ and KJ, probably also QJ. He may not shove all of them, but he will do so with some. Also he sometimes reraises AA/KK preflop, so the number of those is reduced.

So we have the equity to b/c.

guys, I seriously think that check is much better here because it also extracts value from his bluffing range. it looks like we are giving up and he can position bet w air (he rarely position bluff raises). the argument that you have 35% even vs strong range so you can get it in after b/c is true but still this is the worse line - by betting flop you miss value from his bluffing range and are getting it in vs his value range. so why on earth we bet? this looks like perfect check / call, bluffcatching line, or not?

I think check/calling here and getting value from his bluffing range > protection vs 9x

Yeah, but 27/8 is much more on a passive side I think, although initial AF is quite normal (only 40ish hands though) ... so we are therefore giving freecard and and missing on value ... I think in this spot fishes tend to push sets, reraise str8 and call draws ... But again assumption on a very small sz, so one can never be sure ...

Originally posted by Cornie4ever
guys, I seriously think that check is much better here because it also extracts value from his bluffing range. it looks like we are giving up and he can position bet w air (he rarely position bluff raises). the argument that you have 35% even vs strong range so you can get it in after b/c is true but still this is the worse line - by betting flop you miss value from his bluffing range and are getting it in vs his value range. so why on earth we bet? this looks like perfect check / call, bluffcatching line, or not?

I think check/calling here and getting value from his bluffing range > protection vs 9x

Could you specify which hands there are in his range that are a) air and b) bet the flop?

Originally posted by Bierbaer

Originally posted by Cornie4ever
guys, I seriously think that check is much better here because it also extracts value from his bluffing range. it looks like we are giving up and he can position bet w air (he rarely position bluff raises). the argument that you have 35% even vs strong range so you can get it in after b/c is true but still this is the worse line - by betting flop you miss value from his bluffing range and are getting it in vs his value range. so why on earth we bet? this looks like perfect check / call, bluffcatching line, or not?

I think check/calling here and getting value from his bluffing range > protection vs 9x

Could you specify which hands there are in his range that are a) air and b) bet the flop?

It' s FR and he plays 27VPIP, which means he plays any suited ace, many suited kings and all the pocket pairs. Some of these fish even play any ace offsuit and also call 3bet with that. So I think you miss value from e.g. these hands if you bet flop

Axs, Axo
Kx
22-77 (they frequently try to bet flop to take it down)

These categories of hands will usually bet anyway on flop because he is fish (so you don' t miss any value)
KQ, AJ, KJ, all the 9x,

and if you are behind (no need to list the hands), the money are in anyway.

Well, he open-raised preflop and is 27/8.. So I' m not sure if the categories above are correct. I just wanted to introduce the concept why c/c is better imo by listing the categories of the hands. The concept is if you check you don' t miss any value from the hands that pay you off and can get additional value from bluff range. I think this is the case for this board?

What I wanted to point out is, that there aren't many air hands in his range, if any.
You mentioned Axo and Kx hands - while there are some of those in a 27% range, there aren't many in an 8% range. And furthermore he even calls a reraise, so the number of weak hands is even reduced.

So I take the same concept you took ("we're all in against better hands anyway") and appy it the other way around: We don't want to give the hands that are actually worse than ours a free card. If there are any AJ, KJ, QJ, T9, 98 type of hands I want value from them asap before K or A fallls (which will btw also be a scarecard for us).

Originally posted by Bierbaer
What I wanted to point out is, that there aren't many air hands in his range, if any.
You mentioned Axo and Kx hands - while there are some of those in a 27% range, there aren't many in an 8% range. And furthermore he even calls a reraise, so the number of weak hands is even reduced.

So I take the same concept you took ("we're all in against better hands anyway") and appy it the other way around: We don't want to give the hands that are actually worse than ours a free card. If there are any AJ, KJ, QJ, T9, 98 type of hands I want value from them asap before K or A fallls (which will btw also be a scarecard for us).

yeah, I finally agree with you that b/c is good. When writing my explanations I actually figured it out as well thanks to the categories of hands that there are not so many air hands in his open/calling preflop range. Still there are definitely some as he is huge fish, but your reasoning makes sense as well. Even if I think he bets any Jx on flop to our check so we don´t give him free cards so often, but it already leads us to assumptions.

Anyway, thx for more in depth discussion

...btw I still check the hand ♠_cool: