1/2 T8s blind defense v LAG

Hi!

Of all lines c/c seems worst and it also feels wrong. You basically make your hand face up and expect him to bluff or valuebet worse.Both of these are very unlikely...

to bluff he must be turning Ahigh into a bluff but...
1.he doesnt have that many Ax here anyway(I wouldnt expect him to call his entire Ax range on turn),
2.ppl dont turn Ahigh into a bluff very likely
3.even if he is thinking about it... your hand looks very face up and really looks like you will c/c there.

To vbet he must...
1. have a worse hand.There are Tx,4x,pockets.
2.he will check behind 4x pretty much always
3.he may go and bet some of those worse Tx or maybe pockets(unlikely though) but then again he is calling these anyway then

so.... its either a bet or c/f.

Since I think c/f seems a bit too weak I would preffer to bet and then b/f as our hand is at the bottom of our range. Vs some players I wouldnt really mind c/f here....I dont really see that much value in a bet anyway, vs this guy however betting is better due to his wide ranges.

Hi Dawnfall,

Thanks for your answer.

I dont really get it how could this be a value or either a bluff bet. Ofc he doesnt fold better, and I have ~ 30% equity against his range, and he will also raise me there in some cases which makes the bet more expensive. So I tend towards check and if you suppose he is not a bluffing kind then x/f. But im not sure that he wouldnt bluff, nay my impressions about him suggested me that he may turn busted draws into bluff if I bet, and if I check he behaves the same way. I think if you x/f or b/f a second pair on a draw heavy board like this, you could be a target for bluffs.

How does your b/c b/3b range look like here ?

Also if you ever check this river, how does your x/f x/r x/c range look like ?

To be honest my first impression is to x/f river here and not really feel too bad about it

We have pretty much our worst value x/r'ing hand on the flop and by the river pretty much every semi-bluff which we can be x/r'ing has come in be it by us hitting a pair or my us actually making our draw

We have pretty much no value in our hand now so I agree that it's either a bluff bet or it's a x/f

Just looking at this hand from a numerical POV:

I'm assuming we're going to defend about a 70% range vs the a button open so as per below:

22+, A2s+, A2o+, K2s+, K3o+, Q2s+, Q4o+, J2s+, J5o+, T4s+, T6o+, 95s+, 96o+, 85s+, 85o+, 74s+, 75o+, 64s+, 64o+, 53s+, 54o, 43s

On the flop we'd x/r with something like the following range:

Combonator Output combonator.com
Board: T 4 Q

Entire range: 835 

[b]  Grouped[/b]:  284 combos  34.0% 
[b]Ungrouped[/b]:  551 combos  66.0% 

  [b]Group 1[/b]:  221 combos  77.8% (26.5% total) 
  [b]Group 2[/b]:   63 combos  22.2% ( 7.5% total) 

[b]Group 1[/b]: Value Range 77%

TT+, 44, AQs, ATs, AQo, ATo, KQs, KTs, KQo, KTo, Q2s+, Q4o+, JTs,
JTo, T7s+, T4s, T7o+

[b]Group 2[/b]: Bluffs 23%

J9s-J8s, Jd7d, Jd6d, Jd5d, Jd3d, Jd2d, J9o-J8o, 98s, 9d7d, 9d6d,
9d5d, 98o, 8d7d, 8d6d, 8d5d, 7d6d, 7d5d, 6d5d, 5d3d

By the river this actually leaves us with next to no bluffs left in our range at all and with T8 being pretty much the worst hand in our range and therefore a bluff bet as wierd as it sounds.

However we can change our x/r'ing hand on the flop in order to make sure this doesn't occur to the less "obvious" bluffs. (Things like 3-straights with BDFD's come to mind - i.e. 6 :diamond:5x, hands which will allow us to continue to have a bluff range if the obvious draws come in)

If we were to change our flop x/r'ing range then T8s may fall into the x/c range (although still close to a x/f imo just becasue of it's position of "worst value hand).

So the main thing to think about:

1) Your X/R range on the flop. If it's all the "obvious" bluffs then I'm pretty sure you have the worst hand in your range here so the only option is to bluff bet with it

2) On River, your range goes:

Bluff Bet -> X/F -> X/C -> Value Bet/Fold -> Value Bet/Call -> X/R -> Value Bet/3-bet

And it's probably worth thinking about all those ranges and seeing if you can come up with them from the ground up

Really cool hand though and really merits discussion

Well maybe expressed myself badly.

If you check with intention of calling then you want one of two scenarios to happen...you want him to either valuebet a worse hand(like 99) or you want him to turn some hand into a bluff(smtn like Ahigh)... I would say that either one of these is highly unlikely.

Ya I also think c/f is completely valid,only problem is that then decent player can start bluffing us a lot since I dont really see a hand which we will c/c here....do you?

Check/folding here is the funniest joke I heard in a while.

From an exploitative POV: he'll have more than enough Kx with a diamond, if nothing else, to bluff with, so if we check, it has to be a check/call.

From a balance POV: if you don't have enough worse Tx in your range to c/f, you either defend way too tight, or c/r the flop inconsistently.

I think depending on reads it's either a blockbet or a check/call, I'd prefer blockbetting, but it hugely depends on the Villain (and we haven't got any suitable reads yet to tell). And I think we can fold to a raise quite easily, bottom of our range + generally people underbluffraise the riv, so it is fine.

Originally posted by madorjan
From a balance POV: if you don't have enough worse Tx in your range to c/f, you either defend way too tight, or c/r the flop inconsistently.

Not too sure I agree with this but maybe I needed to put my response in more context.

It may not be the absolute worst T in our defending range but I'm not sure we should be x/r'ing here with all our T's anyway. I'd be tempted to call with at least the worst of them

X/R'ing the flop inconsistently is certainly something I pointed out earlier, if you just raise the obvious draws here you no longer have any bluffs left on the river so T8 is actually one of your "bluff" hands

So this more than likely comes back to the flop x/r range where you have to have non-obvious bluffs in it in order to protect yourself on boards like this

If you do x/r an obvious bluffng range you're left with nothing but betting this hands as a bluff or, if you do x/r worse hands for value on the flop, check-folding. I just don't see any other play without just barrelling the river 100%.

If we're assuming that we x/r a range on the flop which allows for these eventualities then fine x/c is the correct line

I don't agree with not c/r-ing all of our Tx-es on the flop, I see no merit to c/r T8, but not T4s (except that Villain might raise T7s and T6s pre, but that won't make a whole lot of difference). The only thing you could say is to protect our calling range, but given the wide range situation and the relative strength of hands I believe with bottom pairs and in-the-middle PPs, we have more than enough protection for our calling range.

By the way, given that this river card hit our range so well, I think it's not necessarily bad to bet all of our range here. (We miss a lot of value with obvious valuehands, if we want to remain balanced here.)

Hey guys,

thanks for your comments.

@Dawnfall26: Yeah I expext him to bet with every busted diamond, Kx, Ax maybe.. but you also mention that if someone is apt to it then he could start bluffing if we fold a hand like this, so IDK why you say that if he bets that must be a vbet for sure.

@madorjan: Dont you think that if we x/r every Tx that makes your calling range vulnerable ? I mean if you do so and you call I know you hold worse than a second pair there. Something makes me feel I should have some combos of top pair/second pair in my calling range as well.

@Boomer2k10: The problem is with bluffing that no better hand will fold. Also no if you v-bet there wont be too many worse hands in the opponents range. So there seems to be no sense in betting and checking seems self evident, sounds stupid but it doenst let the opponent fold against our bet, hence keeping his range as wide as possible and he has to do something with those hands that he'd fold if we bet. Ofc he can still check the hands back we beat and bet if he is ahead, but if he does so, we can find or fold easily and we spare a bet on the river that would just burn in thin air,and if we can induce bluffs thats even better, cause we may find a call then.

And yeah if it sounds weird him bluffing with A-high then why doesnt it sound at least that weird us bluffing a middle pair ?

The problem is that if you want to maintain a good-enough ratio of these "strong" hands in your range, you're missing out on too much value. A couple of combos won't matter either way, you could keep a fair amount of strong hands in your calling range to protect it, but the problem with that is we're OOP, and we often miss out on 1.5BB if the Villain realises it and checks back more often. I think it's a better payoff to have our calling range capped than missing out on a lot of value with our valuehands.

Thats just one side of the coin, you can not only lose value by missing valuebets but also by giving out information. Yes you win some more against an opponent who checks back turns in position, but you will be bluffed out frequently by someone who is a barreling kind, cause your calling range will contain mostly weak ace and king highs and will be weak in showdown value and you will fold especially if 8-Q comes. And if a king or an ace comes on he can still check back and you will miss value anyway with that range unless you donk out.

haven't read all the comments and maybe im just too bad for 1/2 yet. but calling third pair to the board with a fd completed. isnt that a bit. ehm a he has you beat more than 50% of the time making it unprofitable to call river ? I really cant see many hands that you beat here your hoping for a misplayed 4 or 2 or busted draw? I know its BTN range but still.