100NL 3b pot OOP

Hey,

Not sure how many bluffs button is going to show up with, since this type of a player probably doesn't bet 86s/65s/76s on the flop. I'd make a nitty fold in river, since I think the only bluffs villain is going to show up with are T9s/98s that may or may not even be in his 3b range.

So your calling range would be only 77 and AJ?

Originally posted by JohnyC1337
So your calling range would be only 77 and AJ?

Flatting in this spot,which is a MUST vs a guy that 3bet's a lot,make us also have traps in our range,so AK,AA I think would play the same....

Thx for answer Shev,but the main question is ,don't u think villain is capable of 3barelling here any weak SD value???
NOt sure if we would do that with TPWK,but hands like KTo and JTo(not sure V 3b this,but don't think that average villain in my games will call preflop these,so 3betting with blocker effect makes sense),also any Kxs(and I think at this 3b stat V would 3b K2-K8s ,ofc depends of his range construction)
Or maybe this is SF???just asking

Main problem for me in this spot,is that AQ is top of my calling range in this scenario(ofc 80% of the time not every time,like I said ,would slow some AA,KK,AK),so hero is in top range and hits TP....If I am folding this board,when am I calling down? +1 to Johhny!

TY!

If you think villain is 3betting KJo/JTo pre, you are obviously calling all combos of AJ pre. Hence AQ isn't so close to the top of your range. But yea, as I mentioned, this is a rather tight river fold to make but I just don't see enough bluffs in this villain's range. JT doesn't really cbet with the plan of tripling and I don't think many guys on nl100 turn KT into a river bluff (and it's discounted pre). Also given villain's low cbet stat, he probably doesn't cbet K2s-K8s on flop and definitely doesn't continue on this turn.

Originally posted by JohnyC1337
So your calling range would be only 77 and AJ?

In one NL100 zoom video, coach Oblio said that people in NL100 zoom are f*cking nitty, and GTO defend will burn money in many situations, and he said he thinks that GTO should be played starting in NL200.
If what he said is true, this hand should be then perfect example where we don't need to defend GTO because we don't expect average reg in NL100 zoom to bet GTO ?

really imo we need him to spew hands in order to make a call on river because we even block KQ, QJ, and he probably calls all KQ, QJ, 89s, 9Ts (standard call BU vs CO). Also bluffing river with KTo doesn't make sense, because he beats Jx.

Flatting in this spot,which is a MUST vs a guy that 3bet's a lot,make us also have traps in our range,so AK,AA I think would play the same....

Is it really a must? I posted one hand where I slowplayed QQ preflop in late position vs agro 3bettor, and coach mbml told me that slowplaying premiums is not good especially OOP when ranges are wide, because we allow villain to realize his equity, also we lose value by just calling 3bet. So some arguments on this, why is it good to call premiums OOP in late positions?
Still when you call 3bet with only some AA, KK, AK combos it is still small % of your entire call range.

So lets say you slowplayed one combo AA, 2 combos KK, and AKs, on river you come with:

AA, 77, AKs, AJ, JKs, AQ, JQs, JTs = 35 combos

if you don't flat premiums, on river you have 31 combos.

So doesn't changes much, on river premiums are just 8.5% of your defend range, so he can on most boards value bet same combos vs your river defend range with or without premiums in it (just his equity becomes slightly smaller but still +EV).

Anyhow on river you need to defend 55%, so 35 combos * 0.55 = 19 combos.
So you can exactly defend only AA, 77, AKs, AJ, JKs. IF you don't have premiums, you would have to call AQs also.

Originally posted by GingerKid

Originally posted by JohnyC1337
So your calling range would be only 77 and AJ?

In one NL100 zoom video, coach Oblio said that people in NL100 zoom are f*cking nitty, and GTO defend will burn money in many situations, and he said he thinks that GTO should be played starting in NL200.
If what he said is true, this hand should be then perfect example where we don't need to defend GTO because we don't expect average reg in NL100 zoom to bet GTO ?

really imo we need him to spew hands in order to make a call on river because we even block KQ, QJ, and he probably calls all KQ, QJ, 89s, 9Ts (standard call BU vs CO). Also bluffing river with KTo doesn't make sense, because he beats Jx.

As I said, I don't mind making a tight fold on river in this spot for aforementioned reasons. Seems silly to make a decision to play gto because you play a certain limit but I won't go into that discussion here.

I disagree that villain needs to spew in order to make this a call on river but rather play well/balanced enough. I'd guess most regs on this limit aren't balanced enough to make AQ a call here.

Hey GK you made a very interesting post,regarding trapping range...

Probably u are right about river play....but why aren't u considering(maybe this flop isn't the best example) x/r range OTF???I mean playing aggro OOP probably most of the time is the best line.

Having KK,AA(not thrilled about QQ OOP)overpairs(most of the time) in our flatting OOP range will allow us to rep much more in the future...

About GTO,yup ,I think isn't needed atm because most of the people are playing exploitive,and others are pushing buttons...each way u loose playing GTO...

Altough it's great to know GTO,for ure poker development

Both hands these and JJ(that u also commented) are folds OTR in my games as usual,these time just tried to be more smart that I should,and costed my winrate..

THx for debate and GL!!!

Hey GK you made a very interesting post,regarding trapping range...

I am also the most interested about this one, but coatch missed that

Probably u are right about river play....but why aren't u considering(maybe this flop isn't the best example) x/r range OTF???I mean playing aggro OOP probably most of the time is the best line.

I didnt consider c/r range because I wanted to show that AQ is a fold GTO
just kidding (but might be partially true)

I wouldnt raise on dry boards Axx, Kxx. The main reason is, if we make balanced raise range, opponents bluff catch hands are mostly top pairs, which block our value range, so most of his hands (or probably all) will have +EV call down. When board is low, we can raise sets and e.g. KK+, then most of his bluff catchers will be overpairs which doesnt block our value hands but even bluff hands.

I am currious what does coatch think about this point? I think we need to account his blocker bluff catchers, and reduce number of bluffs on such boards like Axx if we want to dont let him bluff catch +EV.

Having KK,AA(not thrilled about QQ OOP)overpairs(most of the time) in our flatting OOP range will allow us to rep much more in the future..

But, how many combos do you slowplay? If you slowplay all, ok you can repp, but you lose so much value preflop especially vs opponent that has also 5bet bluff range, or calls 4bets.

If you slowplay only few of them, then still it is low % of your range, so it is not that you can repp so much more in late positions. In early positions it is bigger % of range so you can repp.

Originally posted by GingerKid

But, how many combos do you slowplay? If you slowplay all, ok you can repp, but you lose so much value preflop especially vs opponent that has also 5bet bluff range, or calls 4bets.

If you slowplay only few of them, then still it is low % of your range, so it is not that you can repp so much more in late positions. In early positions it is bigger % of range so you can repp.

Still talking about GTO,here...
About combos /not all obvious...it's enough to see u at Sd with trapped premium,to have credibility,ofc u will want to have an unexploited 4b range(so u need to def 50%+ from ure 4b range,and slowplaying all AA,or KK won't help,only if u never4b which is SF)

about Axx,Kxx (I said that this particularry board won't need x/r range) ,I think x/calling flop chck turn(if he chcks) and then lead rivers with some ofour value range(depending on villain tendencies) is very decent..if u are concerned about getting three streets,I think u should obv x/c down,because he will triple his value range (y)

Don't think that trapping pre is a great strategy against this opponent, since he isn't aggro enough post. Also, I would very rarely have a c/ring range on Axx/Kxx flops in 3bp. Need some good reads before I'd be going for those.

Originally posted by Shevtshenko
Don't think that trapping pre is a great strategy against this opponent, since he isn't aggro enough post. Also, I would very rarely have a c/ring range on Axx/Kxx flops in 3bp. Need some good reads before I'd be going for those.

Can you please tell reasons why wouldnt you
Raise on Axx, Kxx boards?

I think one reason would be that opponent hits that board good? I heard it also
From other coatches but dont get it why.

I think that many opponents will bluff wider on Axx Kxx,
And would c/c weaker Ax, also their bluffs have no overcards
So less equity for floating vs raise or bluff 3bet. So
I think vs such opponents it would be good to
Raise strong hands and semi bluffs.

Do you trap premiums vs unknowns, and
Vs good regs? If yes how many combos do you
Suggest?

On a lot of Axx, Kxx boards cold callers range is so much weaker compared to the 3betters range that raising a lot isn't a feasible game plan. Trapping pre with premiums isn't terrible but against most good regs it isn't optimal either.