Should I have folded to donk river bet?

I'm not sure if we should defend T8o here. We could raise OTF. OTT board pairs and FD gets there so no need to raise here imo. OTR I would just call and save the 11bb we have left.

I would just call turn aswell, and river. If I would raise any street I would raise the flop as it looks the weakest.

Hi , here are my idea!

Firstly against a bad fish , i never call evean IP with this hands...maybe maybe if was suited , because if i hit a T on a board like JTx i don't know how exactly to play if he it's aggro and continue to bet the turn/river.But in topic , i am 99% sure , i always re-raise the flop and try to put my money in the midle , if it's a huge fish maybe can call us with 2 overcards or if he hit a second/top pair and also we protect our hands against a flush draw.

Probably raising flop here.

I'd defend T8o IP BvB.

Defenfing is ok pre.
I like raising on flop. Board is wet and we can make him pay.

Thanks for the advice all.

When it is close to nuts vs nuts situation on River, it is not important what decision we take in long run...
In this hand , if we had a flush i would probably call river (would call 100% with Ax flush).

with the straight ,our call is very optimistic (we raise turn so we look like a strong hand => when he donks river he is not bluffing!)
So what hands he would donk river and not bluffing ? (flush and full house)

Raise OTF, shove OTT. You don't want your opponent to make his/her draw. Give him a bad price to call.

As played I am not calling the river. There are a ton of stronger hands...

Doesn't matter much how you get the money (all of it, except maybe those last 11bb!) in here. Just don't ever fold whatever your fevered imagination puts him on.

It is just so so bizarre, there is another hand where the debate is hot. In that hand, we are against another wild player, but this time we have fucking nothing, are out of position, and contemplate a call-down two more streets regardless. WTF?

There are posters advocating a call-down there (turn + river), but advocating a fold here. Are you guys trolling?

If you have second thoughts, have them on the turn when he donks (call, don't fold of course). Not on the river. That way you will reduce variance.

Originally posted by YohanN7
There are posters advocating a call-down there (turn + river), but advocating a fold here. Are you guys trolling?

The two hands are completely different. River donk with that sizing here is very very strong. What makes perfect sense is JJ (not because I saw the results). Only 3 combinations but I don't see anything else... The next hands that we can add in the range with very low probabilities are still stronger than ours; bluffs or worse value hands are very unlikely. Even if we decide we can't fold this, then it's definitely a call and never shove because we don't have >50% equity on the river.

Originally posted by kriko92

Originally posted by YohanN7
There are posters advocating a call-down there (turn + river), but advocating a fold here. Are you guys trolling?

The two hands are completely different. River donk with that sizing here is very very strong. What makes perfect sense is JJ (not because I saw the results). Only 3 combinations but I don't see anything else... The next hands that we can add in the range with very low probabilities are still stronger than ours; bluffs or worse value hands are very unlikely. Even if we decide we can't fold this, then it's definitely a call and never shove because we don't have >50% equity on the river.

Note first that I also see JJ as his most probable hand. But unlike you, I don't forget/ignore the rest of the ingredients.

Note too that I am not so bad that I can't change my mind a bit. The call isn't as obvious as I first thought. It is quite close, but still a call for me. I'll present my reasoning in more detail below.

You try to put an erratic opponent on a hand. You have to put this dude on a reasonable range. Well, you make an attempt, but assign the probability of hands like AA/KK/QQ/A6s/AJ/bluff on flush scare card zero probability. This is a big mistake. Another mistake: "River donk with that sizing is very strong." Sure, but his bluffs are supposed to look like value bets (poker ABC). This all in combination with pot odds and an erratic opponent in a blind war makes in my mind this a call. But all you see here is the second nuts (JJ). Poker isn't that simple.

Now also note that JJ constitute 3 combos (this you do note), but how many combos of 6x are there? Let's say there are 20 6x combos an erratic player might decide to play preflop and flop this way. Say there is a 10% chance an erratic player plays turn and river this way with 6x. This is not extremely low (he might be afraid to scare you off with a turn reraise (remember he is erratic)). Now you beat two combos and lose to three. Mathematical call. Then add all other possibilities, however unlikely, they aren't impossibilities. Sure, you must add in flushes, but you must also add in busted flush draws. A♠:x/K♠:y makes good sense.

You are better off not trying to put opponents "on a hand" if you ignore everything except the most likely. Play the earlier streets in such a way that huge river mistakes are impossible. If you are unsure you will call a river all in of a certain size having a good but non-nut hand, then bet/raise either more or less, making the river decision much easier.

You are absolutely right that we want to put our opponents on reasonable ranges. How do we do that? Start with the hands that make sense on all streets. By making sense I mean that most people will take this line with those hands, the standard line. When we are finished with those (as I said, only JJ here for me), we can start thinking about other hands he might have.

Of course other hands are possible but certain things need to happen so that he can show up with them on the river - he has to be the kind of guy who deviates from the standard line here and there. The more deviations there are "needed" so that he can show up with that hand, the more unlikely it becomes. One assumption is usually fine, he can do "x" a third of the time, we include this discounted in the range. If we have to add another one with the same probability, things aren't looking good at all - he'll show up with that hand only one out of ten times. Here in order to put AJ in his range you have to make way too many assumptions (cbets flop - most of the time, not always; cbet/calls turn - not always; donks river - unlikely; donks river with this sizing - very unlikely; everything combined - not going to happen).

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes poker is indeed simple in the micros because players flip their hand face up in some situations. If we just ignore those signs and play standard, it's not that bad. These spots don't happen very often, we'll call, think it's a standard set up and forget about it. Can we do better? I think the answer is yes.

Edit: Now after I see your edit, I admit that I underestimated the 6x possibilities a little. I still think it's a fold because if we add the 6x then we have to put the slowplays in there too (66, 77, 99, 67s, all flushes).

I think you should have just given up pre-flop, unless you are not too comfortable with your post-flop play.

As played, raise flop IMO. You have a good hand here and he might still call you off here.

Turn is a bad card for us, FH and flush are beating us. I Think I would just call here.

River is a fold - this line is usually FH or flush on this board, so I'd just give up. Raising is the worst possible option here as you are not beating anything here.

@kriko92
Still not entirely correct imo. Of course you don't put AJ (12 combos) in his range. You might put one half of a combo of AJ in his range. He is erratic. These hands all add up, especially the 6x.

Also, suppose he isn't erratic, but very good. He is offering you more than 2:1 to call. The odds of him downright bluffing should be 2:1 against. Say he has 8 combos for value (JJ + a few flushes). Then he should have 4 bluffs, making this call break even. But he is erratic. He'll mistakenly value bet worse hands than yours (he's erratic) and bluff more than his share (he's aggressive).

Yohan, we cannot call with flush and pair on board, no matter how you try to convince the field about that.

Originally posted by kriko92
You are absolutely right that we want to put our opponents on reasonable ranges. How do we do that? Start with the hands that make sense on all streets. By making sense I mean that most people will take this line with those hands, the standard line. When we are finished with those (as I said, only JJ here for me), we can start thinking about other hands he might have.

I don't understand why he can't have AsQs, 99, 66 here?

Originally posted by nitrol
Yohan, we cannot call with flush and pair on board, no matter how you try to convince the field about that.

Yeah we literally beat only bluffs.

Originally posted by MJPerry

Originally posted by kriko92
You are absolutely right that we want to put our opponents on reasonable ranges. How do we do that? Start with the hands that make sense on all streets. By making sense I mean that most people will take this line with those hands, the standard line. When we are finished with those (as I said, only JJ here for me), we can start thinking about other hands he might have.

I don't understand why he can't have AsQs, 99, 66 here?

It's possible for him to have such hands but there are two more likely lines with them - one is to shove turn and the other is to call turn and check river. These hands are what I meant when I said in my first post that the next hands that we can add after JJ with low probabilities still beat us.

I would raise flop here and pray he has decent hand. With all hands mentioned above + many more I expect him to go AI. This is not the hand and the villain to slowplay.