Priced into 4BP? Plus some general theory questions

What is so standard about this 3B? This is a standard calland play IP.
Your 3b size isa bit big. A bit but big.
The size of his 4b is standard and you are dead vs his 4B range.
I like the turn bet after flop and turn x by villain.
What would you say about small bet on river?

I'm not all that interested in exploitative play vs 5NL population, just correct theory.

Okay, this is totally fine but if you want to make some money at the micros its not working.

I would flat this hand pre vs SB. If we assume that this guy at NL5 has a 4bet bluff range we barely have 50% equity against it. That 3bet pre is kind of borderline and it starts to be a bluff. I would continue vs 4bets with stronger range and fold this one here.

As played I think that turn bet is ok and I would bet small OTR too when villain checks.

Sorry, I can't give you a very deep GTO analysis. Imo it is not necessary here.

Originally posted by nitrol
What is so standard about this 3B? This is a standard calland play IP.
Your 3b size isa bit big. A bit but big.
The size of his 4b is standard and you are dead vs his 4B range.
I like the turn bet after flop and turn x by villain.
What would you say about small bet on river?

This was my first day playing cash games properly today with any sort of plan despite playing for 8 years.

Initially I designed polarized 3bets from BB vs. BU and SB and SB vs BU and (more or less) linear from all other positions, not sure how standard this strategy is to be honest.

I noticed pretty quickly that microstakes population just never folds to 3bets so I raised my sizes to Pot in position and 4x OOP though may go higher still. The biggest adjustment I made was to rework my BB 3bet ranges to linear range, at the behest of Snowie more than anything but over my first 5000 hands it does seem to give me more playability OOP, the ranges clash with the caller a lot but at least I'm not playing 74s OOP in 3bet pot at a stake with low fold equity. I can see why you may find it incorrect BB vs SB IP, is a polarized range here a necessity? Another thing to note is that when opponent makes it 3.5-4x preflop from SB shouldn't they theoretically have tighter (23-29%) SB RFI? The price you set pre is a function of the strength of your range, no?

The 3bet is just a repot, the large value in terms of big blinds is merely from his 3.5x initial raise, would you still make your 3bets the same overall size (say 9BB BB vs SB) regardless of SBs raise size? Rather than setting a price relative to price he sets us?

Why is this sizing standard? Don't you price most of thier 3bet range into a mandatory call? If all 4bets were this size I'd have to F4B like 20% of the time... why shouldn't we re-pot?

What would be your reason for betting river? Balance for when we induce with nuts? It turns our hand faceup unless we do it with whole range and reasonable villain can just jam it and we have to fold ATs. This is the thinnest value hand I show up with here, if it's valuable at all, we beat a couple of ace combos and that's it unless unreasonable villain makes hero call with JJ/TT/misplayed A7s?

Originally posted by la55i

I'm not all that interested in exploitative play vs 5NL population, just correct theory.

Okay, this is totally fine but if you want to make some money at the micros its not working.

I would flat this hand pre vs SB. If we assume that this guy at NL5 has a 4bet bluff range we barely have 50% equity against it. That 3bet pre is kind of borderline and it starts to be a bluff. I would continue vs 4bets with stronger range and fold this one here.

As played I think that turn bet is ok and I would bet small OTR too when villain checks.

Sorry, I can't give you a very deep GTO analysis. Imo it is not necessary here.

Yeah I definitely get that, for now I'm building population reads and practising balanced play in most spots for higher stakes, I do have some expoitative measures in my strategy already that would not fly at higher stakes but I'm adapting slowly from (what my beginner's mind perceives to be) a balanced foundation.

Am I looking at this from too much of a tournament perspective or something? Versus my own polarized SB 4B range (admittedly looser than population) ATs is >60% and here villain challenges us to find 28%, it's only vs KK/AA that we drop below that. Why do we fold? Wouldn't folding always be a mistake if we are offered correct odds to call? Is it that our slightly favourable equity does not give us enough edge to beat the rake or something?

As with my reply to nitrol above what is the objective of our small river bet? Does it increase expectation of our total strategy? AKs/AJs are probably slightly thinner value holdings as they block the KK/JJ herocalls so those are 100% checkbacks for me but aside from that ATs is our thinnest value and possibly still a semibluff versus reasonable range. Is there another motive for betting? If villain plays hand weirdly he can have flushes complete on river too but we cannot have a single flush on river, not one. For villain it's unlikely but possible that he has K5 through KJ.

IMO its checkback: AKs, AJs, ATs, JJ, TT, 99
Value Jammmm: QQ, AA, AQo, KQs(?), AQs
Flushblockerjam: KK

If this is correct is it better to bluff 6 combos of KK or just do KKx and JJx?

Thanks a lot for your replies guys, any help on that 3bet/4bet theory is much appreciated!

BB vs SB you can call a lotand outside that calling range- you can build your 3b bluff range.
Of course you should have value 3b too. PLaying polarised is better.

I think that very few players will know that wih bigger preflo raise, they should play tighter ranges.
Yes, I would make my 3b 9bb from BBvsSB.

The 4b size is - 2.2-2.5x the 3b size. In your case it is right there.

First I want to say that if you have the experience that ppl will call your 3bets too much at the micros it is most likely wrong. In my opinion 3betting will be very profitable.

Villains open raise from SB is big. When we consider 3bettin you should know if this is his standard opening size or does he have AA now that he opens so big. And as I said before for me this hand is a flat call anyway. Nitrol said he would 3bet always 9bb here but I would increase my 3bet size. I think yours is fine. The standard 4bet size is that 2.2 - 2.5x. I don't know if we mathematically make most of villains 3bet range to call but at least in reality this is not the case. 4bets are very much respected. Bluff 4bets are rare at the micros and ppl tend to call those with quite tight range.

The reason to bet that river would be to get value. Here villains line looks like he had some sort of 4bet bluff and he doesn't have anything good. Our bet has a lot of fold equity and sometimes he might "bluffcatch" with JJ or weaker Ax. We don't lose anything if we bet since I don't think villain plays better hands this way and he is not going to raise as a bluff. It just doesn't happen at the micros when villain plays like this and we play like this. In higher limits ppl will bluffcatch you more and start to adapt but as I said in my first post that GTO stuff is not always the best approach at the micros.

Our equity vs villains 4bet range is not the most important thing since we are not going all-in. We have to play that hand postflop and our hand is easily dominated by better Ax. Vs my standard 4bet range ATs has around 55% too but we can't know what is villains 4bet range. As I said earlier 4bets are quite rare at the micros and not often used as a bluff. So villains range could be value only.

Checking back river is ok in my opinion and you are probably right that we should check back in theory. But in practice this is a bit different at the micros. I believe that both me and nitrol would bet this river just because in practice villain very rarely has a better hand here and almost never raises as a bluff. We also see frequently some stupid crying calls with weak hands.

Originally posted by nitrol
BB vs SB you can call a lotand outside that calling range- you can build your 3b bluff range.
Of course you should have value 3b too. PLaying polarised is better.

I think that very few players will know that wih bigger preflo raise, they should play tighter ranges.
Yes, I would make my 3b 9bb from BBvsSB.

The 4b size is - 2.2-2.5x the 3b size. In your case it is right there.

Thanks, any material on 4bet sizing theory and why this is standard? Presumably it's so small so they can defend a wider portion of their RFI range but it just seems unnecessary, why not defend a narrow, strong range correct to the MDF versus the 3bet sizing? Exploiting the population overfolding to 4bets? I can't imagine 5NL players are overfolding to 4bets, or is it that they are overflatting them with weak range so there's value in pricing them in? The way I see if they are offering this price they have to have very polarized range thus our correct adjustment is to merge our flatting range for range advantage. If they make 22-25BB with unbalanced strong range this has to be a mistake?

For these reasons I don't understand why we would fold to a 2.2x IP with much of our 3bet range, we almost always have the required equity to continue, especially at 150BB effective stack depth? If villains are all offering me almost 2/1 and position I should realise my initial equity and then some so I'm delighted to get my linear 3bet range into these spots, why wouldn't I be?

If this is incorrect please set me straight. If it is correct then by association doesn't my linear 3betting range become correct as it offers me a more appropriate range to flat their incorrect 4bet sizings?

If SB 4bets polarized range to >30BB I am forced to play shove fold which is easy if I was 3betting heavily polarized range but horrible for me in reality, that's part of why I think SB should 4bet bigger.

In reponse to your suggestions I have developed alternative 4bet ranges which I will be alternating on depending on network so I can track profitability. I also think upon further study that ATs is a flat call vs 3.5x open but potentially a 3bet vs. smaller RFI sizings, contrary to my earlier assertions.

Originally posted by la55i
First I want to say that if you have the experience that ppl will call your 3bets too much at the micros it is most likely wrong. In my opinion 3betting will be very profitable.

Villains open raise from SB is big. When we consider 3bettin you should know if this is his standard opening size or does he have AA now that he opens so big. And as I said before for me this hand is a flat call anyway. Nitrol said he would 3bet always 9bb here but I would increase my 3bet size. I think yours is fine. The standard 4bet size is that 2.2 - 2.5x. I don't know if we mathematically make most of villains 3bet range to call but at least in reality this is not the case. 4bets are very much respected. Bluff 4bets are rare at the micros and ppl tend to call those with quite tight range.

The reason to bet that river would be to get value. Here villains line looks like he had some sort of 4bet bluff and he doesn't have anything good. Our bet has a lot of fold equity and sometimes he might "bluffcatch" with JJ or weaker Ax. We don't lose anything if we bet since I don't think villain plays better hands this way and he is not going to raise as a bluff. It just doesn't happen at the micros when villain plays like this and we play like this. In higher limits ppl will bluffcatch you more and start to adapt but as I said in my first post that GTO stuff is not always the best approach at the micros.

Our equity vs villains 4bet range is not the most important thing since we are not going all-in. We have to play that hand postflop and our hand is easily dominated by better Ax. Vs my standard 4bet range ATs has around 55% too but we can't know what is villains 4bet range. As I said earlier 4bets are quite rare at the micros and not often used as a bluff. So villains range could be value only.

Checking back river is ok in my opinion and you are probably right that we should check back in theory. But in practice this is a bit different at the micros. I believe that both me and nitrol would bet this river just because in practice villain very rarely has a better hand here and almost never raises as a bluff. We also see frequently some stupid crying calls with weak hands.

A nice dose of reality into the theoretical discussion for sure, I've definitely seen some odd tank calls by villains and I've only played a few thousand hands so far, one called two streets then tank called my river shove on KQT75 with T2s in the SB vs. my MP open, bizarre stuff and makes it difficult to ascertain which areas of your strategy are impenetrable enough for higher stakes without actually playing them and probably losing a lot of money.

What would you suppose population F3B is at 5NL? I was thinking super low, like <50%, there's no way it's anywhere close to autoprofit from my experience so far. Limp-fold has to be really low as well, could be wrong.

Originally posted by Calsaj
What would you suppose population F3B is at 5NL? I was thinking super low, like <50%, there's no way it's anywhere close to autoprofit from my experience so far. Limp-fold has to be really low as well, could be wrong.

It depends on villain. You will see guys foding over 80%, you will see guys folding up to 30%.
I think most part are those who do not defend and fold much. It depends on the format - normal tables or Zoom.
Limping is common. You will meet all l/c and l/f too.

Originally posted by Calsaj

Originally posted by nitrol
BB vs SB you can call a lotand outside that calling range- you can build your 3b bluff range.
Of course you should have value 3b too. PLaying polarised is better.

I think that very few players will know that wih bigger preflo raise, they should play tighter ranges.
Yes, I would make my 3b 9bb from BBvsSB.

The 4b size is - 2.2-2.5x the 3b size. In your case it is right there.

Thanks, any material on 4bet sizing theory and why this is standard? Presumably it's so small so they can defend a wider portion of their RFI range but it just seems unnecessary, why not defend a narrow, strong range correct to the MDF versus the 3bet sizing? Exploiting the population overfolding to 4bets? I can't imagine 5NL players are overfolding to 4bets, or is it that they are overflatting them with weak range so there's value in pricing them in? The way I see if they are offering this price they have to have very polarized range thus our correct adjustment is to merge our flatting range for range advantage. If they make 22-25BB with unbalanced strong range this has to be a mistake?

For these reasons I don't understand why we would fold to a 2.2x IP with much of our 3bet range, we almost always have the required equity to continue, especially at 150BB effective stack depth? If villains are all offering me almost 2/1 and position I should realise my initial equity and then some so I'm delighted to get my linear 3bet range into these spots, why wouldn't I be?

If this is incorrect please set me straight. If it is correct then by association doesn't my linear 3betting range become correct as it offers me a more appropriate range to flat their incorrect 4bet sizings?

If SB 4bets polarized range to >30BB I am forced to play shove fold which is easy if I was 3betting heavily polarized range but horrible for me in reality, that's part of why I think SB should 4bet bigger.

In reponse to your suggestions I have developed alternative 4bet ranges which I will be alternating on depending on network so I can track profitability. I also think upon further study that ATs is a flat call vs 3.5x open but potentially a 3bet vs. smaller RFI sizings, contrary to my earlier assertions.

Read this section:
http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/

On Nl5you will see more flat to 4b and more 5b Value only.

Watch the w34z3l's Walkthrough Video Series and read this:
https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=309916

Originally posted by nitrol

Originally posted by Calsaj
What would you suppose population F3B is at 5NL? I was thinking super low, like <50%, there's no way it's anywhere close to autoprofit from my experience so far. Limp-fold has to be really low as well, could be wrong.

It depends on villain. You will see guys foding over 80%, you will see guys folding up to 30%.
I think most part are those who do not defend and fold much. It depends on the format - normal tables or Zoom.
Limping is common. You will meet all l/c and l/f too.

Thanks again, I've played a few regular tables with HUD yesterday and adjusted strategy exploitatively to 75/25 LimpCall/LF players and the opposite player type, maybe overadjusting. The speed pools on the networks I am playing are HUDless (as are some regular tables, playing like 6 networks) which benefits my weak loose RFI ranges but also means I don't know whether specific villain folds too much or not and have to tailor my strategy to assumed population tendencies (without large database to verify my assumptions) or perceive villain as myself, maybe I should start assuming villain is 20/18 nitreg as that's all I've run into...

Originally posted by Calsaj

What would you suppose population F3B is at 5NL? I was thinking super low, like <50%, there's no way it's anywhere close to autoprofit from my experience so far. Limp-fold has to be really low as well, could be wrong.

Hi!

Went trough my database; 684 729 hands at nl4-nl5 AVG. fold to 3bet is 41%

Originally posted by Calsaj

Originally posted by nitrol

Originally posted by Calsaj
What would you suppose population F3B is at 5NL? I was thinking super low, like <50%, there's no way it's anywhere close to autoprofit from my experience so far. Limp-fold has to be really low as well, could be wrong.

It depends on villain. You will see guys foding over 80%, you will see guys folding up to 30%.
I think most part are those who do not defend and fold much. It depends on the format - normal tables or Zoom.
Limping is common. You will meet all l/c and l/f too.

Thanks again, I've played a few regular tables with HUD yesterday and adjusted strategy exploitatively to 75/25 LimpCall/LF players and the opposite player type, maybe overadjusting. The speed pools on the networks I am playing are HUDless (as are some regular tables, playing like 6 networks) which benefits my weak loose RFI ranges but also means I don't know whether specific villain folds too much or not and have to tailor my strategy to assumed population tendencies (without large database to verify my assumptions) or perceive villain as myself, maybe I should start assuming villain is 20/18 nitreg as that's all I've run into...

Make a default strategy that you play vs unknown. Treat them all as unknowns. Your strategy should be built in order not to be exploited.
Then, you should be very active in writing notes that will help you twist your ranges vs every particular villain.

Hi!

Went trough my database; 684 729 hands at nl4-nl5 AVG. fold to 3bet is 41%

Which poker rooms you play?

Just a quick comment.
I filtered out the situations where I called a 4bet. I can tell calling a 4bet with weak hands was hugely -EV. I took only my last 50k hands. I could filter if from my whole database later.

Out of those 50k hands I called a 4bet and saw a showdown with 20 hands. 12 of those were JJ+ (I think there was only 2 JJ and others were QQ+) and 2 were AK. Then there was some TT,AJ and few crap hands.

3betting seems to be profitable. My winrate in 3bet pots is 279bb/100 and in those situations where villain folded to 3bet it is 273/100. So highly profitable. Although it was only a small sample that I filtered from. This is the part where HUD comes in handy.

Originally posted by marsa08

Originally posted by Calsaj

What would you suppose population F3B is at 5NL? I was thinking super low, like <50%, there's no way it's anywhere close to autoprofit from my experience so far. Limp-fold has to be really low as well, could be wrong.

Hi!

Went trough my database; 684 729 hands at nl4-nl5 AVG. fold to 3bet is 41%

HM2 or PT4? How do you check villains avg fold to 3bet? I want to check it too

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by marsa08

Originally posted by Calsaj

What would you suppose population F3B is at 5NL? I was thinking super low, like <50%, there's no way it's anywhere close to autoprofit from my experience so far. Limp-fold has to be really low as well, could be wrong.

Hi!

Went trough my database; 684 729 hands at nl4-nl5 AVG. fold to 3bet is 41%

HM2 or PT4? How do you check villains avg fold to 3bet? I want to check it too

In hem2 opponents-> summaries and then just filter for stakes if you play many.

Originally posted by nitrol

Hi!

Went trough my database; 684 729 hands at nl4-nl5 AVG. fold to 3bet is 41%

Which poker rooms you play?

I dont want to tell ♦

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by marsa08

Originally posted by Calsaj

What would you suppose population F3B is at 5NL? I was thinking super low, like <50%, there's no way it's anywhere close to autoprofit from my experience so far. Limp-fold has to be really low as well, could be wrong.

Hi!

Went trough my database; 684 729 hands at nl4-nl5 AVG. fold to 3bet is 41%

HM2 or PT4? How do you check villains avg fold to 3bet? I want to check it too

On HM2 you select the 'Opponents' tab at the top then below that you select 'Summaries' instead of 'Player Analysis', you'll find rows with stats for each villain you have faced, underneath there is a black bar with the aggregate statistics of all villains you face (population statistics).

My population F3B is at 41.2% so read confirmed for now. Mine is under 50% too so perhaps I am making big mistakes but so many 3bets at 5NL appear to be 2x clickbacks from inexperienced players with broadway cards that would be incorrect to fold to, or perhaps I'm just a station in denial.

Thanks nitrol will check it out once I have requisite status points.