Serious Problems Winning On WPN

Hey TakingAShot,

You do seem to have problems, but the Ev line isn't really the problem. Generally if you play strong ranges, you will always run under Ev mainly because you will be sucked out on more than you suck out.

Your main problems are your blue line (showdown winnings) and red line (non-showdown winnings). Red line tends to suggest that you aren't stealing enough (This may be difficult at NL2 as fish don't like folding) and blue line tends to suggest that you are calling too many rivers.

After about 8k hands, there is a significant dropoff that suggests tilt or a loss of confidence. You may need to go back to basics and rebuild your game from the ground up.

Other stats may tell us more like results by position, WWSF and W$SD.

If you haven't already, I would suggest checking out w34z3l's Bumper AMA Thread. In particular you should check out the 6-Max walkthrough and red line rampage.

Regards

Laz

Thanks for getting back to me about this, too. I appreciate it.

I'm going to just turn up the volume on play/study even more. Even a year ago, I would have thrown the laptop out the window by now and been onto something else but I've really fallen in love with the game and am extremely determined to beat this network in the cash game.

Since I'm winning on BetOnline, I need to put volume in there now, too. Making the money is obviously nice and it's good for my confidence to not just kill myself for 10 cents every 100 hands on WPN. I'll create a thread soon that has my stats, key hands, and confusions contained within and maybe someone can finally get me going here.

https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/41236/

I'm studying this video and working on my redline right now. My green line is just always way below my yellow line and I'm going long, long stretches without hitting the board at all. I have to fold as the player pool is extremely nitty postflop and keeps putting money into the pot on the turn when I'm clearly behind.

Hey TakingAShot,

You should also take a look at Red Line rampage - Printing Money Preflop. asimos mainly caters for midstakes where players DO fold.

Content from guys like w34z3l and Lemon36 is more appropriate for someone trying to get through the minefield that is NL2.

Originally posted by TakingAShot

Even a year ago, I would have thrown the laptop out the window by now and been onto something else but I've really fallen in love with the game and am extremely determined to beat this network in the cash game.

This is a good sign that you are improving mentally. People always underestimate the importance of a calm mindset. Having been a very tilty person in the past, I can attest to the fact that my tilt was not allowing me to improve and was actually having a detrimental effect on my overall game.

In the end, I had to stop playing until I could fix the underlying problem (tilt). Now I'm a happy player who doesn't complain about losing KK and JJ to ATo aipf in two MTTs within 30 seconds (happened yesterday). Now I just smile and move on.

Cheers

Laz

Thank you, once again. Extremely helpful link to the video, too. I'm going to dig into it in just a few.

Over on RedChip, they asked me to post stats, hands, discuss my thoughts about my game, etc. When I created a thread about it, I didn't exactly find the kind of help one would hope for or even expect from a pay site.

Can someone please read the stats and my thoughts about the hands I'm getting into and try to help me get out of this mess? They're advocating 80%+ cbetting, calling 50% of 3b's total pre, and all sorts of other things I have never heard of before. They've also recommended Blackrain79's material heavily and to be quite honest: His material was the worst I ever did come across and he hasn't been around the game for like 2+ years. If these guys are BlackRain fans, I'm very uneasy about following their advice at this point.

https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/8636/wpn-2nl-stats-during-downswing#latest

I literally just cancelled the sub there 10 seconds ago. If you read the thread, you'll see why. That place is absolutely ridiculous lol.

Hey TakingAShot,

I just read the thread and I was mortified by the flaming and trolling. Needless to say, you won't receive that sort of "advice" here. At PokerStrategy.com, we pride ourselves on providing a supportive community-based learning environment.

As a MTT player, I don't feel comfortable offering any advice but I'll move this to our "No Limit" board where it's more likely to be seen by our more statistical minded cash game players.

Also posting your stats by position is important as well in identifying leaks.

Regards

Laz

Thanks again, Laz. All help is appreciated immensely here. I'm working hard on my game and will continue to. I look forward to what some of the more experienced and advanced cash game players have to say about my game. I'll go about collecting some statistical data by position but I can tell you that I'm playing positionally aware (maybe even too much so, so I'll look into it) and starting to open more SC's from EP since there's so much 3b'tting behind me and hands like AQ, KQ, etc are often dominated by villains 3b range. I'm also trying to play more hands from late position that have more implied odds if they do hit since that's what I see the better players doing and the calling odds on some of these hands are like 10:1+ at 2NL.

Hey TakingAShot,

I quickly read through this thread and the one at redchip.

First thing I want to tell you is that the difference between your winnings and All-In EV is not that big and the amount of hands is really really small. It is normal to hit downswings and sometimes they are huge. I have several times lost almost 10 buy-ins in just 2k hands. Losing some money over a 10k hand sample doesn't mean you are a bad player. Everyone will have 10k hand downswing at some point.

I think your stats look quite tight. It would be great if you could post some positional stats so we can see your vpip/pfr/3bet by position.
50% fold to 3bet is too low. 60-70% should be ok. Cbetting more than 80% sounds quite high too.. Your fold to cbet might be a bit too high..

Overall your stats are decent and with this sample size it is hard to analyze it better. I think it is better to not look too much at your stats. Good stats should be a byproduct of good play. So don't just start calling cbets more if you don't yet understand when and where you should call more

I will also take a look at some of your hands that you have posted in the hand discussion forum

Originally posted by la55i
Hey TakingAShot,

I quickly read through this thread and the one at redchip.

First thing I want to tell you is that the difference between your winnings and All-In EV is not that big and the amount of hands is really really small. It is normal to hit downswings and sometimes they are huge. I have several times lost almost 10 buy-ins in just 2k hands. Losing some money over a 10k hand sample doesn't mean you are a bad player. Everyone will have 10k hand downswing at some point.

I think your stats look quite tight. It would be great if you could post some positional stats so we can see your vpip/pfr/3bet by position.
50% fold to 3bet is too low. 60-70% should be ok. Cbetting more than 80% sounds quite high too.. Your fold to cbet might be a bit too high..

Overall your stats are decent and with this sample size it is hard to analyze it better. I think it is better to not look too much at your stats. Good stats should be a byproduct of good play. So don't just start calling cbets more if you don't yet understand when and where you should call more

I will also take a look at some of your hands that you have posted in the hand discussion forum

Fantastic. Thank you very much. As suggested, I'm studying that "Red Line Rampage" video because I do realize I'm folding to 3b's way too much and probably 3betting in a lot of bad spots to do so but I also know that calling 50% 3b's is a bit too high.

I'll definitely get some by position stats filtered and look through my hand history from previous sessions and post any hands that I had specific trouble with and marked. The advice over there has already been extremely helpful. Thanks again

The players are very agro in this network. Truth...I never saw that before. So much aggression. No matter Nl2 or NL25. The easiest way to handle with that is to play tight. They will 3bet and float just the same or even more. "Because you are tight".Weird logic, I know.

Maybe, you should also say smtg about your vpip per position.
Check/show those stats. Are you positional aware (enough) ?

Originally posted by insomnia666
The players are very agro in this network. Truth...I never saw that before. So much aggression. No matter Nl2 or NL25. The easiest way to handle with that is to play tight. They will 3bet and float just the same or even more. "Because you are tight".Weird logic, I know.

Look, it's helping me improve and I'm getting experience in tough spots for a discount price. Indeed, though: Especially at like 2-6am EST, the games are just ridiculously aggro and cutthroat. It's fun but at this point I'd like to start beating 2NL and moving up. The difference between 2NL on that network and everywhere else I've played it (even 5NL on other sites) is night and day.

Originally posted by TurokRider
Maybe, you should also say smtg about your vpip per position.
Check/show those stats. Are you positional aware (enough) ?

Yeah, as said: I need to go into PT4 and do some filtering. I'm extremely positionally aware, though. Perhaps even too much so, if that's possible. Preflop positional awareness is usually around 5 although I do see some guys with 7.

edit: Wow. I just looked and for the month I'm @ 7.39.

The average re-steal is too high. Don't play with wide range from CO and BU. And SB ofc.
You can play with BU 35-40% , CO 23-24%. SB 45-50. RFI...As average. Sometime ATC from BU and SB, sometime very tight.
What is your range UTG and MP? Do not change this range, no need for that. I mean, when you play.
Also what is your OR size? BU 2x or 3x? CO?

Too wide from the CO?

Remove A9o, A8o, K9o. Also K5s-K8s. Add 65s,22-44. Also 97s and 54s , if you like. You can add k2s-K8s, A3-A5o, A9o, K9o, Q4s-Q7s, J7s , 86s, Q9o , J9o , if the players behind are passive and if they don't call too much pre-flop or post-flop.

Originally posted by insomnia666
Remove A9o, A8o, K9o. Also K5s-K8s. Add 65s,22-44. Also 97s and 54s , if you like.

Will do. They weren't in there before a few days ago (smaller SC's) but I thought part of my problem here was opening hands that wind up being dominated by what does call or 3b it from the BTN or blinds. So, I thought throwing in a few SC's would benefit me. I'm certainly not saying that's accurate, I'm just saying that was my rationale behind adding them into the range.

A9o, K8s, etc - I didn't really feel comfortable with these anyway. I'll happily remove them.

edit: Thanks - That's a nice range and it's actually tighter than what I had earlier.